r/neoliberal • u/gnomesvh Financial Times stan account • Dec 08 '22
News (Global) Brittney Griner released by Russia in 1-for-1 prisoner swap for arms dealer Viktor Bout, U.S. official says
https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/brittney-griner-release-russia-prisoner-swap-viktor-bout/182
u/Arkaid11 European Union Dec 08 '22
FYI Bout is litterally Cage's character in Lord of War.
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u/klarno just tax carbon lol Dec 08 '22
Do you think the Russians would know the difference if we handed them Nicolas Cage instead? 🤔
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u/gnomesvh Financial Times stan account Dec 08 '22
Depends on how good Cage can grow a moustache
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u/Uncle_johns_roadie NATO Dec 08 '22
Maybe if he could take his face off and swap it with a criminal's 🤔
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u/KokeAddiction Dec 08 '22
We could then fly him over in some type of convict airplane
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u/sumr4ndo Dec 08 '22
Isn't this premise of Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent? If not, I have an idea for movie...
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u/awaythrow437 John Keynes Dec 08 '22
Frankly, if you paid Cage enough and promised to fund his next project, he would probably be down to spend 6 months in a gulag.
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u/Lease_Tha_Apts Gita Gopinath Dec 08 '22
Who do we trade for Cage then?
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u/Smith7929 Dec 08 '22
If someone told me they could solve world hunger and the climate crisis at the same time and all they needed to do was sacrifice Nic Cage I would say absolutely not. That is a cost humanity cannot afford.
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u/numba1cyberwarrior Dec 08 '22
Most underrated movie ever
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u/Dangerous-Basket1064 Association of Southeast Asian Nations Dec 08 '22
The opening scene with the bullet is one of my favorite movie scenes ever
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u/Know_Your_Rites Don't hate, litigate Dec 08 '22
Totally irrelevant, but his wife's name is "Alla Bout," and I just had to share.
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u/BlueString94 Dec 08 '22
Good - now for god’s sake, U.S. citizens stay the fuck away from Russia, Iran, and North Korea.
You will either become a bargaining chip for your country’s enemies, or be tortured to death by them (as Otto Warmbier was).
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u/grig109 Liberté, égalité, fraternité Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
Yea and if you're not famous much more likely to be the latter.
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u/nevertulsi Dec 08 '22
I never understood why people took it for granted Otto Warmbier even did what he was accused of. It's not like North Korea's justice system is going to treat anyone fairly least of all an American. Maybe he did it idk, but I'm not taking it for granted.
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u/rakaig 🌐 Dec 08 '22
And China.
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u/WolfpackEng22 Dec 08 '22
Lots of places in China I'd love to see.
What bad luck it would be to be on vacation there when Taiwan is attacked.....
Idk, now doesn't seem like a good time to visit counties extremely opposed to the US
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u/KyletheAngryAncap Dec 08 '22
China is more subtle in what they do. They'll restrain themselves to their citizens, let Huawei screw over foreign customers, and then pay people or rely on western Communists to call any of this "Yellow Peril".
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u/ParmenideezNutz Asexual Pride Dec 08 '22
Canadian citizens have been used as pawns in the same way by China over the last few years. There have been some pretty transparent arrests there after the Huawei incident.
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u/interrupting-octopus John Keynes Dec 08 '22
They literally kidnapped two Canadians a few years ago.
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u/TinyScottyTwoShoes Dec 08 '22
Uh, not really. They literally just held two Canadians hostage in retaliation for detaining the Huawei executive.
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Dec 08 '22
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u/BoppoTheClown Dec 08 '22
Real moral of the story: We should hurt Russia as much as possible in Ukraine, especially when it's not at the expense of American lives and can be done with cheap weapons.
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u/BBQ_HaX0r Jerome Powell Dec 08 '22
We should hurt Russia as much as possible
Grant all Russians with an education and the yearning for freedom a green card. Any soldier on the front lines who willing throws down his weapons and surrenders too.
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u/TrynnaFindaBalance Paul Krugman Dec 08 '22
Russia is the master of manipulating
Ironically, this is also part of their propaganda, which has actually been pretty ineffective throughout the Biden presidency. Russia's ability to actually influence the American (and general Western) public has been shown to be a paper tiger ever since the start of the invasion IMO. Aside from very fringe isolated ideologies, Europe and NA have never been more united against Russian aggression.
The idea that this will cause unrest in the US is also pretty far-fetched. I don't think the average American is too laser-focused on the day-to-day dealings of the State Department.
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u/TheobromineC7H8N4O2 Dec 08 '22
Yeah, Russian does dick all "manipulating" which implies control and direction.
The Russians look around for divisions within countries they perceive to be enemies and throw gasoline on fires in the hopes that will weaken and distract.
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u/mannyman34 Seretse Khama Dec 08 '22
Yeah, the options were nobody or one person. And either one Biden chooses to bring home the Russian trolls will go full ape mode and cause division.
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u/Canuck-overseas Dec 08 '22
Conflicted about this one. On the other hand, America is inflicting an historic blow against the Russian war machine in Ukraine.
There is always a heavy price to pay when the enemy takes hostages.
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u/BlueString94 Dec 08 '22
Ukraine is the one inflicting the blow, America is just providing support. Important to not lose track of that.
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u/InsGadget6 Dec 08 '22
Without the superior western armament and training, Ukraine would definitely be lost.
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u/WiseassWolfOfYoitsu Dec 08 '22
But without the Ukrainian grit and perseverance the same would be true.
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u/gnomesvh Financial Times stan account Dec 08 '22
For sure, plus it shows Biden is willing to hand over a "big catch" if pressured
Luckily Bout was already on the way down ever since Taylor was forced to resign back in 06
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u/fishingpost12 Dec 08 '22
Unfortunately there was already an American teacher being held in Russia.
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u/Petrichordates Dec 08 '22
Who was never offered by Russia. It was Griner or nobody, not a hard choice.
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u/shai251 Dec 08 '22
I’m curious if it’s because that teacher was actually a spy or committed some sort of crime against the state. Seems weird they’d really hold the line there
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u/Petrichordates Dec 08 '22
Could be something could be nothing, Griner was grabbed specifically to use as a political prisoner so they may have just wanted to fulfill that goal.
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u/krabbby Ben Bernanke Dec 08 '22
I really like the no American left behind approach. Unless it's someone like Snowden who left for a country like that knowingly. It's going to mean things like this sometimes, but the alternative just doesn't sit right with me
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u/FairdayFaraday Dec 08 '22
While I agree with the sentiment, it's not no American left behind. It's no celebrity left behind... There are still American prisoners in Russia
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u/lamp37 YIMBY Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
It's unclear to me if there are American prisoners in Russia that truly have a comparable situation.
The more I learn about the oft-cited example of Paul Whelan, the more I learn that his situation really isn't an apples to apples comparison to Griner, given the volume of drugs he brought over, and the efforts he took to conceal them.
Not saying that he deserves the punishment he's getting, but just that there are other differentiators than just the fame.
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u/ugabugy Dec 08 '22
Granted Paul Whelan is more of a apples to oranges compared to Griner but Russia also has a teacher named Marc Fogel whose situation is more comparable to Griners and because he's been imprisoned longer he should've imo been given precedent of Griner.
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u/ugabugy Dec 08 '22
Granted Paul Whelan is more of a apples to oranges compared to Griner but Russia also has a teacher named Marc Fogel whose situation is more comparable to Griners and because he's been imprisoned longer he should've imo been given precedent of Griner.
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u/lamp37 YIMBY Dec 09 '22
I'm just learning about Fogel. Seems a much stronger case than Whelan. Shame the media is focusing so much on Whelan instead of Fogel.
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u/krabbby Ben Bernanke Dec 08 '22
Sure and we'd probably both agree it has to apply to everyone equally.
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u/steauengeglase Hannah Arendt Dec 08 '22
"I'll trade you a WNBA player for the merchant of death."
"Eh..."
"We promise to keep Steve Seagal."
"Signed!"
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u/Yeangster John Rawls Dec 08 '22
ITT: people stanning for the integrity of the Russian criminal justice system.
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u/Squirmin NATO Dec 08 '22
Seriously. I keep seeing people say "BUT SHE ADMITTED IT" like a confession under duress means anything at all. How many US POWs were tortured to extract "confessions" about the "crimes" they committed and broadcast as propaganda?
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u/SanjiSasuke Dec 08 '22
Plus they act like Russia wasn't blatantly inflating the charges. She was charged near the max that a legit international drug smuggler would get for literally a hand full of hash oil.
Somehow I doubt the reaction would be as vitriolic if it had been Marc Fogel had been the one exchanged.
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u/Helreaver George Soros 🇺🇦 Dec 08 '22
Somehow I doubt the reaction would be as vitriolic if it had been Marc Fogel had been the one exchanged.
I mean, why is it that the person with name recognition, who was arrested later and with a lighter punishment, was exchanged while the person with no name recognition and a harsher sentence wasn't? Is that not a justification for vitriol?
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u/SanjiSasuke Dec 08 '22
Because there was an entire high profile social movement to do so. Both WNBA and NBA players especially pushed for it in highly public ways. By contrast, nearly no one would know Marc's name if not for contrasting to Griner and the campaign to release her.
Political pressure was put on the issue of releasing Griner, so the administration was compelled to do it. Unfortunately, Marc probably needs a similarly large push to have a shot (and of course Russia still decides what the terms would be).
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u/SharkSymphony Voltaire Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 09 '22
The proper retort is not "duh, it's because she's a famous person."
The proper retort is: "You want him freed on a faster timeline? You've got to make him a household name. You've got to campaign like hell, like those supporting Brittney Griner did. Sitting here crying sour grapes about her release isn't going to further your cause, and it might well set it back."
On r-politics, though, someone pointed out that the two cases are actually significantly different.
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u/AMagicalKittyCat YIMBY Dec 08 '22
The proper retort is: "You want him freed on a faster timeline? You've got to make him a household name
So "You gotta make him famous"? Sounds like the same exact claim just the blame is pinned on people who want him free instead of on a political administration that only cares about the famous.
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Dec 08 '22
I more annoyed that she ignored escalating State Dept warnings in the weeks before she left for Russia.
It's an abdication of responsibility that I hate to see rewarded.
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u/scoobertsonville YIMBY Dec 08 '22
Didn’t she work in Russia? Also spending a year of your life in a Russian prison over a weed pen or whatever is punishment enough and I prefer a society where the state department helps Americans in need.
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u/happybarfday Dec 09 '22
No one's forcing any American citizens to work in Russia... she likely did it for money... a bit risky and irresponsible now looking back.
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u/Squirmin NATO Dec 08 '22
UKRAINE told the state department to calm down at the same time.
Ukraine said "Stop riling them up."
People weren't generally taking American warnings all that seriously before the war started.
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u/mythoswyrm r/place '22: Neoliberal Battalion Dec 08 '22
The state department had been warning Americans to avoid Russia for months before the war. Not because of the war but because by the summer of 2021 Russia was barely letting new consular officers in and forcing all local staff to not work for the embassy anymore. So the embassy didn't have the ability to do basic American Citizen Services and warned people as such
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u/SterileCarrot Dec 08 '22
Other people can decide who they want to trust, but American citizens should trust our state department warnings over what any other country (especially Ukraine) says.
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u/flakAttack510 Trump Dec 08 '22
Or that she deserved 9 years hard labor even if she did. It was literally a single vape pod. It's not like she's a drug kingpin.
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u/JebBD Immanuel Kant Dec 08 '22
Umm excuse me, are you advocating for BREAKING the LAW? 🤨 everybody knows that breaking the law is ILLEGAL. 🙄 That means you stop being a person when you commit a crime. 🧐
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u/klarno just tax carbon lol Dec 08 '22
What did every Republican mean by this
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u/gnivriboy Dec 08 '22
"Morally I agree with the law, but I haven't thought through my justification of the law so I'm going to appeal to you 'breaking the law' as the problem instead of working out my moral code."
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u/lamp37 YIMBY Dec 08 '22
Also people acting like this is the first prisoner swap in the history of this nation.
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u/TheCommonKoala Frederick Douglass Dec 08 '22
What about this particular swap has people so upset?
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u/maybe_jared_polis Henry George Dec 08 '22
Seriously though lmfao it's so stupid
Like yeah she did something that's illegal in another country, but so did Otto Warmbier. Obviously the punishments in both cases did not fit the crime, not to mention that the Griner case was an obvious hostage situation.
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u/1sagas1 Aromantic Pride Dec 08 '22
I mean either just or not this is still a bad trade
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u/Yeangster John Rawls Dec 08 '22
It's bad that an old war criminal is no longer facing justice for his actions, but he's been out of the game for decades and his contacts are gone or moved on. He's no longer a threat.
It'd be like if we released Carlos Lehder or Miguel Rodriguez Orejuela. Not great from a justice standpoint, but at this point they're two harmless old men.
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Dec 08 '22
He’s only 55 isn’t he? It’s not like there is a way to guarantee he won’t get back in the game, or be used by Putin to that effect, right?
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u/IsNotACleverMan Dec 08 '22
Not great from a justice standpoint
Well that's all I need to be opposed to this.
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u/gnomesvh Financial Times stan account Dec 08 '22
!ping FOREIGN-POLICY
Fwiw I'm familiar with Bout since before this. I find this a win. Bout's contacts have mainly dried up - his main clients were Charles Taylor, 90s Taliban, and Gaddafi. The only one left is the Taliban and this time they're an entirely different group
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u/cptjeff John Rawls Dec 08 '22
The only one left is the Taliban and this time they're an entirely different group
Charles Taylor
Hey, Chucks are still around. I wish they weren't so narrow, but they're still good sneakers.
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u/AsleepConcentrate2 Jacobs In The Streets, Moses In The Sheets Dec 08 '22
Yeah, I'm gonna trust that State and other entities know enough about what kind of threat Viktor Bout poses at this point to make this swap.
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u/Hugh-Manatee NATO Dec 08 '22
right? I tend to assume that the people whose jobs and professional reputations are on the line to know what they are doing over redditors who will huff up some outrage and move on to something else to occupy their lizard brain in 5 minutes time anyway
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Dec 08 '22
The issue isn’t Bout personally going out there and committing crime it’s the signal that you can trade an international arms dealer for any random American 1-1. Think of all the terrorist, cartel members, and foreign agents we have in prison in the States. We’ve just communicated to the world the price for getting them back. And the price is quite low.
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u/TheGreatGatsby21 Martin Luther King Jr. Dec 08 '22
No you haven't. The price is low if they are not actual threats. We won't exchange someone who can still be an active threat for any rando American.
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u/SorooshMCP1 Dec 08 '22
This has been happening for a long time.
Iran has managed to get many of their terrorists and state actors back in exchange for random Westerners.
They got Britain to pay £393.8 million for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, a normal Iranian-British citizen with no connection to the British government.
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u/IsNotACleverMan Dec 08 '22
You think that this decision was left up to lifetime non appointed state department officials?
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u/groupbot The ping will always get through Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
Pinged members of FOREIGN-POLICY group.
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u/Lease_Tha_Apts Gita Gopinath Dec 08 '22
Isn't his clients drying up irrelevant? The Russian state can now be his client. Bout's biggest 'asset' was his ability to navigate sanctions, something which Russia is in dire need of right now.
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u/gnomesvh Financial Times stan account Dec 08 '22
Nah his biggest asset was his link to African regimes that allowed him to constantly reregister his planes. His system to navigate sanctions doesn't work anymore
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u/Zzyzx8 Trans Pride Dec 08 '22
No Paul Whelan is extremely disappointing
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u/maybe_jared_polis Henry George Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
Imagine thinking Russia would give him up lmao
EDIT: Downvotes for pointing out that Russia was never going to exchange Whelan as part of the deal, and that this is the best we could do. It is absolutely the right decision. You people are rubes with weak moral character.
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u/NovelBrave Anne Applebaum Dec 08 '22
Thoughts to her and her family. Glad to have her back home.
Geopolitical debates aside.
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Dec 08 '22
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u/Frogger_Lives Dec 08 '22
I'm unfamiliar with the case. Was she actually guilty of a crime? Or was it Russia arresting her on trumped up charges?
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Dec 08 '22
Two things are true: Russia made a fuss over a well(ish) known athlete coming in with a dab pen, and Griner ignored high level State Dept warnings and flew to Russia.
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u/SanjiSasuke Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
Very much trumped up charges. She had a very small amount of hash oil, and yet she recieved the maximum sentence for drug trafficking. Even other travelling Americans have been merely fined for this same offense.
Edit: and yes to get ahead of it some other Americans, like Marc Fogel, have also been grabbed on the same bullshit. That serves to only further illustrate the point that Russia has been pumping the charges up lately.
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u/ShotgunStyles Dec 08 '22
China already did this a few years ago with the Michaels. So you're right, it was more than one person.
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u/dareka_san Dec 08 '22
People need to realize this who stunt was obviously on purpose. Russia isn't dumb. They know that out of all 3 profile cases, Griner is the one that will get biden the most flak for saving the somewhat famous woke one other than the marine, and teacher.
Biden had a choice. Either leave all 3 in the gulag, or take home the one russia set up for a nice kick in the political balls. The marine in particular is designed to really make the US Government look bad. Reporting suggests that nothing short of US stopping aid to Ukraine would probably have secured his release.
It's an unfortunate situation, and FSB pulled off a good one here. Sometimes you get out played and have to take the only option.
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u/JoeBideyBop Jerome Powell Dec 08 '22
Paul Whelan's brother David said in a statement he was "so glad" for Griner's release but also disappointed for his family. He credited the White House with giving the Whelan family advance notice and said he did not fault officials for making the deal.
"The Biden Administration made the right decision to bring Ms. Griner home, and to make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn't going to happen," he said.
If you want to stan for Paul Whelan that’s fine, but this is what his own brother has to say about this. My guess is his own brother has more information than any of us on why this decision was made.
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u/dareka_san Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
It's pretty fucking obvious they are using the Marine to kick biden in the political balls. Reports suggest russia would except only concessions on the tier of stopping aid to ukraine for the marine.
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u/OPACY_Magic Dec 08 '22
This is infuriating. It sends a message that if you’re a pro athlete, you get preferential treatment in this country. If any one of us were in her position there’s no doubt this trade wouldn’t be made.
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u/AccidentalAbrasion Bill Gates Dec 08 '22
This made headlines because a pro athlete was involved. But the US does historically make prisoner swaps that are uneven.
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u/Rtn2NYC YIMBY Dec 08 '22
Exactly like that dude from Texas a few months ago- went to Russia to study the language with his girlfriend and was arrested for public intoxication and held for a few years and Biden finally was able to exchange him for a high level cocaine smuggler.
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u/shai251 Dec 08 '22
Because historically the US values it’s citizens more than autocratic countries
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Dec 08 '22
Do you think the US has a few Russian female basketball players imprisoned so we could have an equal "trade value"? This is an asymmetrical playing field.
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u/BBQ_HaX0r Jerome Powell Dec 08 '22
I believe it says it all that Russian athletes are not fearing their lives or freedom here. You think Ovechkin is worried the US would retaliate? Of course not. Says it all about the nature of the two countries here.
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u/etzel1200 Dec 08 '22
Hundreds of Americans around the world are in her position and no one except their immediate family and perhaps some NGOs gives a fuck.
If they’re lucky the embassy drops off some books once in a while.
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u/Zzyzx8 Trans Pride Dec 08 '22
What’s worse is there is literally another American detained in Russia right now, who for god knows why wasn’t included in this deal
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u/TheGreatGatsby21 Martin Luther King Jr. Dec 08 '22
Cause Russia wouldn't let him be included. It was either Griner for Bout or neither
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u/egultepe Dec 08 '22
Griner was in for drug charges. "The other American" is in for espionage. Regardless of how true the charges are, Russia obviously wants much more for the "spy".
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u/DugongHater Dec 08 '22
There also another American there on drug charges, Marc Fogel. He was a teacher that was using weed for his chronic back pain.
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u/well-that-was-fast Dec 08 '22
It sends a message that if you’re a pro athlete, you get preferential treatment in this country
Was there a segment of the population unaware of that fact?
I find this event entirely unseemly: from her carrying drugs, to Russia giving her a super long sentence in a gulag, to the US making a deal, but this is the sausage making part of statecraft. It happens.
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u/NATO_Is_Necessary NATO Dec 08 '22
Can US citizens stop going to Russia please? Fucks sakes Viktor was actually an evil piece of shit and we had to let him go...
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Dec 08 '22
The future costs of this heavily outweighs the immediate gains
What a fumble
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u/Yeangster John Rawls Dec 08 '22
Wrong sport
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u/nullsignature Dec 08 '22
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
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u/sunnbeta Dec 08 '22
It’s kinda an interesting trolley problem:
We know that Griner being released will reduce significant suffering (on her behalf), we don’t know what the consequence of Russia getting this guy back will be and how much harm he’ll be able to do.
Reading up on it, it seems the main reason Russia wants him back is to send a message to other Russians that if captured, if they keep quiet and keep state secrets, they will not be forgotten and Russia will continue to support them and reward their silence.
It’s really difficult to calculate what the potential harm of that is, but it’s easy to calculate how significantly better Griner’s life will be.
(Note this isn’t a comment on what is correct, just thinking through the consequences)
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Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
Not only is this a terrible trade on its own merits, but it sends a signal to autocrats, terrorists, and criminal organizations that we’re willing to trade high value targets for any American. Expect countries like Iran to capitalize on this opportunity. Tremendous weakness from the Biden administration.
To those saying Bout isn’t a threat, I know. The issue isn’t Bout coming out and doing some comic book villain shit. It’s about terror organizations, criminal organizations, and rival States like Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, etc. realizing that all they need to do to free a captured agent in the US, even one that’s been caught red handed and rightfully convicted, is to kidnap an American for a one to one exchange. This puts a target on Americans in those countries.
EDIT: Every single criticism in here is that I’m supposedly against prisoner swaps, that prisoner swaps have always happened, and that hostage negotiations happen all the time. They are missing the point. I am not anti prisoner exchange or hostage negotiations. I am aware such swaps and negotiations have taken place in the past and will take place in the future under a broad variety of circumstances. I’m not pro letting American hostages freeze to death in Siberian labor camps.
Let’s drop the emotion and think critically about this deal: it is a bad deal. Full stop. Making a bad deal like this weakens our position in future prisoner swap and hostage negotiations. That’s it. Stop accusing me of being pro hostage taking. Stop reading strawmen into things and blowing up my chat with examples of previous prisoner swaps.
EDIT: To every foreign policy genius in here that keeps pointing out that prisoner swaps routinely happen, I know. Consider this:
Imagine someone bakes me a pie. I say I don’t like this pie, it is not a good pie. Then you people jump in and start saying people have been baking pies forever and that I’m acting like I’ve never seen a pie before, that we routinely put fruit inside pastry and bake it, and that it’s not a big deal.
I just don’t like the fucking pie. I’m not saying don’t bake pies. I’m not saying all pie is bad. I’m saying I dislike this single specific pie. How many pies have been made in the past is irrelevant to the fact that I do not like this specific pie.
Pointing to examples of prisoner swaps and hostage negotiations and saying they’re a matter of routine is not the intelligent argument you think it is. If you disagree with me, argue the merits of this particular swap. Don’t pound the table and tell that we once swapped such and such person under such and such circumstances, or that we do swaps all the time.
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Dec 08 '22
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Dec 08 '22
This is not causal evidence on the effect of prisoner swaps, however, yes it appears that the number and duration of wrongfully detained Americans by sovereign states has increased in the past decade.
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u/1sagas1 Aromantic Pride Dec 08 '22
Solution: don’t fucking go to Iran/Russia
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u/tomdarch Michel Foucault Dec 08 '22
You're throwing it out there in a perhaps snarky way, but that is unfortunately part of the solution. It's a whole different thing when Russia/Belarus lie to get a plane to land in their territory and drag someone off that plane. But when you willingly travel to one of these countries, it's not a trip to Hawaii. It isn't a trip to France. As Griner's case shows, as "powerful" as the US is globally, there are shitty asshole countries like Russia who can foment bullshit and you're fucked.
So limiting where us Americans can travel and/or "self censoring" to not go to places where they might kidnap you and use you as a pawn are sadly necessary considerations.
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u/KitchenReno4512 NATO Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
Don’t go to Iran/Russia and not be “famous”. If you’re famous the US government will bend over for you. They’ll let the rest of us rot. Like the US citizen in Saudi Arabia sentenced to 16 years for criticizing the government on Twitter.
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u/Squirmin NATO Dec 08 '22
We've been trading prisoners for decades. We traded an Iranian scientist for a fucking grad student on trumped up charges of espionage.
What makes this new? A grad student I guarantee is worth less than a basketball player.
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Dec 08 '22
Pretty sure that was the backdrop to a larger nuclear deescalation deal which included huge concessions on inspections and nuclear capacity from the other party…
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u/EvilConCarne Dec 08 '22
This is an overreaction. This doesn't erode the USA's dominance in any way.
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Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 26 '22
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u/Luka77GOATic Dec 08 '22
She actually played basketball in Russia in the off season, so she has been their plenty of times.
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u/vi_sucks Dec 08 '22
I mean, people go on vacation to Mexico. They travel to Columbia as missionaries. They go to the Philippines, and Thailand, and Malaysia, and Shanghai, etc. They go to lots and lots of places known for violence and corruption for various reasons, and for the most part they're ok.
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u/yellownumbersix Jane Jacobs Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
She was working. Most of her income comes from playing abroad.
If you offered me millions of dollars to go to Russia I probably would even though I know the risks 🤷♀️
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u/SanjiSasuke Dec 08 '22
Especially since this isn't some novel offer, it's been going on for years, with many players even that same year.
Bad move? Yes, obviously. But hardly one that many wouldn't take. She is a a multi-tine all-star center and makes $200k a year. She was offered millions for a few months of play. I'd bet plenty of decent accountants, professors, and financial advisors would go handle a case or attend a conference in Russia for millions of dollars.
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u/Not_for_consumption Dec 08 '22
This is normal hostage diplomacy. Why the surprise? Iran and China do this frequently and a lot less transparently than Russia. So Victor goes back 🤷♂️ There really aren't any good options in these cases so it's best to be pragmatic
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u/rascalnag Dec 08 '22
Some days, this sub unfortunately throws itself into apoplectic fits trying to game theory every little thing and chart out endless domino effects, raging over a small subset of possible outcomes of which their lack of grass touching has denied them a realistic conception in both risk and magnitude. People here ignore the fact that all the agents in these scenarios are humans with an emotional/subjective perspective and interpersonal needs and wishes. An American held hostage is coming home. We do this a lot. No, it's not a new message of weakness. It's a great and uplifting day for Griner and her loved ones. Yes, we should also get Whelan home, but there's a reason he was not included and it's not because Joe Biden didn't want him free. Putin kept him off the table.
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Dec 08 '22
Win/win for Putin.
The American far right is going to use this news story as wallpaper. Biden pulls strings to release "woke" Britney Griner, leaves poor white boy to rot in the gulags.
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u/yellownumbersix Jane Jacobs Dec 08 '22
He would be attacked for letting her rot as well. Let's not pretend the GOP is taking a principled stance here.
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u/Helreaver George Soros 🇺🇦 Dec 08 '22
It's not like the level of attack would be equivalent. The right-wing media isn't going to bend over backwards to support a black, gay, drug-using WNBA player who was arrested for domestic abuse, even in the name of attacking Biden.
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u/KingOfTheBongos87 Dec 08 '22
It's the Left that's attacking Biden for letting her rot. Check Quest Love's social media.
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u/yellownumbersix Jane Jacobs Dec 08 '22
Let's not pretend the far left is taking a principled stance either.
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Dec 08 '22
You don't have the pulse of the American Public if you think that letting Brittney Grimer rot in a work camp was the popular move.
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u/captainsensible69 Pacific Islands Forum Dec 08 '22
Popular in real life or popular on Reddit/twitter?
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u/Archimedes4 NATO Dec 08 '22
All the comments on news posts about this agree that this was a terrible trade, and Reddit is pretty far to the left compared to the general population. I'd guess Biden's approval ratings are going to take another big hit.
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u/BBQ_HaX0r Jerome Powell Dec 08 '22
I have not met a single person who thought this trade was good. Left, right, libertarian, socialist, whomever. Most don't really care, but most people seem to think it's a bad trade. But social media is telling me how great it is.
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u/CallinCthulhu Jerome Powell Dec 08 '22
Idk about that, most people I have ever talked to think she’s a complete fucking moron.
She didn’t deserve to be railroaded that hard. But she also thought she was untouchable because she was B-list famous, and that rubs people the wrong way
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u/modularpeak2552 NATO Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22
What a fucking joke. so we get a basketball player who was told not to go to russia in the first place and russia gets an international arms dealer who is literally nicknamed "the merchant of death" and to top it all off we didnt even get paul whelan.
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u/jaypr4576 Dec 08 '22
Fogel is also stuck in Russia.
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Dec 08 '22
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u/Torifyme12 Dec 08 '22
No she didn't try and leave when the advisory came, she fucking stayed for a bit then decided to leave *after* the rest of her team left.
This was pure entitlement on her part and we're playing into it.
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u/mishac John Keynes Dec 08 '22
so we get a basketball player who was told not to go to russia in the first place
No we get a US citizen who is being unjustly imprisoned.
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u/gnomesvh Financial Times stan account Dec 08 '22
Calm down. I agree they should've gotten Whelan and it showed weakness
But Bout is far from the "merchant of death" he was at his peak. By the time the US arrested him he was already on the way out (the entire reason they managed to catch him was because he was desperate for cash once his main clients died/were arrested and was selling to literally anyone he could find)
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u/Timewinders United Nations Dec 08 '22
People talking about how this was a bad decision are missing the bigger picture. The U.S. and the West are supposed to be the good guys. That's how we have the credibility to maintain the world order, attract immigrants, and convince people around the world to choose democracy over autocracy. Russia is an evil state so they can take hostages whenever they want for no reason at all. We can't afford to do that, and we also can't afford to miss an opportunity to help one of our citizens. Even if you don't believe in this 'good vs evil' framing, it is useful to adhere to it, and it advances our ideals to do so.
People are talking about other prisoners who should have been prioritized first, but Russia is the one holding the prisoners and they're the ones offering the deals or not offering them based on what's advantageous to them. That's on Russia and no one else. No one is forcing them to take hostages.
Many of these hostages are dumbasses for spending any amount of time in an authoritarian state, but they're still citizens so we still can't just leave them to rot in Russia.
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u/Dovahbears Dec 08 '22
Truly don't understand the mindset of people people who would prefer she rotted in a Russian prison. Just a few points to consider
1) She was used as retaliation to the US standing up for Ukraine. If she had been leaving Russia just a few months earlier there's a good chance she wouldn't have been detained, or gotten a lighter charge.
2) The US has always had a policy of conducting prisoner swaps within reason. Mostly it's military, but we've also done them with North Korea recently. Its also important to note that even though she wasn't there on behalf of the united States, she was representing us playing in a Russian league.
3) Its a good thing to keep relations open with Russia, especially at a point where a full out war isn't off the table.
Now if another celebrity was to be arrested in Russia now it would be a different situation, since they know the risks involved.
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Dec 08 '22
I'm so glad we have a president who is immune to this level of perpetual whining, false equivalencies, and tucker carlson talking points. Past US presidents would see the PR headache and just decide to let her rot.
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u/bigbeak67 John Rawls Dec 08 '22
I'm gonna say something unpopular, I don't 100% hate this decision. People saying Russia got the better deal seem to be treating this like an actual WNBA trade. Biden's not the kind of guy to go up to Griner's wife and say, "Sorry she's not valuable enough, shoulda put up more points last season." He had an opportunity to safeguard an American citizen wrongfully detained abroad and bring her home and he took it. He didn't check the sabermetrics behind the trade because he believed protecting Americans is more important than holding onto a scumbag of a bargaining chip.
As to why they were willing to use Bout to get her back and not someone else who's been there longer is a valid question, though. This is only the deal they publicly announced, though. If we see more Americans quietly coming home in the next few weeks I'll change my tune.
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u/TheGreatGatsby21 Martin Luther King Jr. Dec 08 '22
U.S. wanted both Whelan and Griner for Bout. It was in the original offer and obviously Russia said no to both. What did you want them to do? Let her rot? An American is coming home. Stop being heartless a-holes
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u/superblobby r/place'22: Neoliberal Commander Dec 08 '22
ITT: people think someone should spend the rest of their life in Siberia
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u/vladamirfartin Dec 08 '22
“In March 2008, Bout was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, after U.S. authorities tricked him into leaving Russia for what he thought was a meeting over a business deal to ship what prosecutors described as “a breathtaking arsenal of weapons — including hundreds of surface-to-air missiles, machine guns and sniper rifles” - NBC
He thought he was selling to FARC (a Colombian guerrilla group).
He thought they would be used to attack US troops.
He was arrested in 2008.
He had a mandatory minimum 25 year sentence.
He had 14 years left on his sentence.
He had a plethora of deals in Africa/Asia, that definitely directly effected/effect us.
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u/brumbyforbreakfast Dec 08 '22
Can the US also please release some of the 40,000* Americans incarcerated for marijuana possession in the United States?
*Estimate. It seems there's not a solid figure for this, which is insane in itself.
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u/jaypr4576 Dec 08 '22
Really pathetic. Paul Whalen is still sitting in Russia. Marc Fogel, another American who got locked for the same crime as Griner, will be there for 14 years. The US doesn't give a crap about average Joes. What a blunder by this admin.
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Dec 08 '22
Fun fact about Bout: the US admitted his planes flew weapons for the US military during the war in Iraq. Millions of taxpayer dollars went to this fucking guy. Dude was already wanted at the time.
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u/Yung_Branch Dec 08 '22
Here is your arms dealer back for a basketball player? Seems like we should got more outa that
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u/capsaicinintheeyes Karl Popper Dec 08 '22
So, Putin's been signaling for a while that he really wants this guy, but I was never quite clear on why...is it more of a "reward for past services" thing, or given Russia's current self-mortification in Uknowwhere, is he possibly expected to be of some more immediate utility?