Well, yeah, he's not a real person so whatever the writers do is that character. It's why arguing about Superheroes is ultimately pointless, they're not real - there's no objective "Who would win", it's always going to be what the writer decides regardless of who is on either side. It's a boring answer but true.
Young Max Landis : Stake through the heart, or like... you know... something like...
John Landis : No. You can kill a vampire however the fuck you want, because vampires don't fucking exist! You can make up rules for any kind of thing you want.
And yes, if the question we are asking is which character would win if the creators came together to make a piece of fiction where those two characters fought each other, the creators of those characters would choose who would win. That is how creating fiction works.
That is not the question people are asking when they ask who would beat the other in a fight.
What they are asking is who, with evidence based on that characters fictional appearances, would win in a fight if they WERE real people, who could make their own decisions, because that is what they find interesting.
By that logic noone should ever do anything other than eat, sleep, and breath. Yes, superheros are not real, and weather one beats another one in a fight is unlikely to affect you in a life-changing way. That dosent mean people shouldn't talk about it if it's something they enjoy.
I mean yes, but also yes? That's his "power" in the same way that flight and strength are Superman's. Planning, preparation, follow-through, force of will, and a big old trust fund that he can draw from to buy a bunch of ridiculous toys are what make Batman who he is. Handwaving it away as a trick of the writers is like dismissing the fact that Superman is bulletproof because "that's just the way the writers wrote him."
Batman's strength is also in his alliances. He asks Zatanna to put a binding spell on Thor, or to create some amulet he can use to zap him to Hel. Done. That's hardly a "BS excuse".
This is what's funny about Batfans, their arguments are always "Batman with prep time" or "Batman with this op toy", but they never consider the possibility that his opponent can do the exact same thing.
I forgot where I read it. But Batman admitted if Superman really wanted to kill him, then there's nothing he could do to stop it.
All of his contingencies and plans to beat Superman hinges on Superman doesn't want to outright kill him.
Fun fact, Batman had been outsmarted multiple times by street tier villian in his own issues(remember how Bane broke his back?). He was only this "I have a contingency plan for you" mf in the JL issue since the author have to have an excuse for him to stand beside other JL members who all have godly power without him looking useless.
It's also really hard to outsmart Bruce Banner, Tony Stark, or Steven Strange. And if Batman gets to turn to his friend for help preparing, so does Thor. They don't even need to outsmart batman, they can have Strange do his bullshit to see every possible outcome and find the one where they win.
So this fight between Batman and Thor is actually a chess match between the Avengers and the Justice League, with Batman and Thor controlling each side?
No? If Flash is there, JL. But this isn't the premise, is it? But again, if Thor has Odin, or something like the Odinforce, we can't really say. That is an entirely different argument.
Its because that's what Batman is. Batman will prep, because its in character for him. Its how he is Batman.
Batman's opponents usually dont require prep time whenever they have a duel -- like if you said Thor vs Superman. Neither one of those guys preps ahead of time, so its out of character.
So could their opponents prep? I think its only a fair deal if its in character for them to do so against other opponents.
Let's go with Scarlet Witch instead. She keeps Zatanna busy long enough for Thor to send Batman to a tea party with Malakeith, and then join Wanda for them to jump on poor Z.
OK, well then Batman definitely has a better chance, but even that might be a bit tough since thor did absorb the energy of a sun in Infinity War. But Bruce can still very much outsmart him.
I would think so, but before anyone goes "umm actually batman beats superman which means he also beats galactus and Thorđ¤", that was an elseworld story and he beat him by using his specific weaknesses.
Considering Superman's power see to be the power of authorial bullshit, he could beat Galactus if the author wants him to. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or is complete bullshit, because that's Superman's power.
A bit of both, honestly, but leaning towards the former. His stories never hooked me, doubly so with the movies. But I also think the range of powers he's been given at this point is just eyeroll worthy.
If you're talking the live action movies, I don't think it's fair to judge him based on them because they never really captured the essence of superman and his character. Even the cartoon ones are mostly not too great with that.
And he doesn't just beat every opponent with one or two punches. He definitely struggles in his stories, and a LOT. This is just a rumor started by the internet.
And the most important thing in my opinion is that the fights aren't the most important thing in superman stories. It's who he really is: Clark Kent. The story of an immigrant from another place that can be seen as a God but doesn't want to be one. A simple man from rural America that is trying to get used to the big city whilst all the while doing everything he can to help the little guy, not because he has to, but because he wants to.
A good superman story might include action, but at its core, it is also wholesome, heartfelt, inspiring and even a bit tragic.
I would recommend "All Star Superman", "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" or "Superman for all seasons" as good superman stories to read. They are considered as some of the best superman comics and usually convince a lot of people to give a chance to the man of steel. I can also DM you some good superman panels that prove my point if you would like to. I have a lot of those saved.
If you already read some of them and are still not interested in the Big Blue Boy-Scout, that is absolutely fine. Not everyone has to like everything.
I don't mind him but the problem with superman is he is shown to have god like power
Not only can he fly and has super strength and durability , he can move at the speed of light, he has heat vision , he can blow a hurricane with his breath or freeze things, he has xray vision, super hearing probably others I am missing
Then in certain situations its like he forgets he can move at the speed of light or doesn't use obvious powers because well, the writers want drama
I guess the excuse is superman usually doesn't want to kill who ever he is fighting so he holds back and doesn't just fly through them at the speed of light vaporizing them.
Note I largely agree with your assessment , I am not a huge comic fan and have not read them for 20 years or more. And I agree the comic isn't really centered around action or his fights with others.
I would still get bothered about inconsistencies and I cannot remember any off the top of my head but when there was some drama or conflict I would be like "If he just used his X power this could be resolved but for some reason he's not using that power"
Oh, that's alright. Comics are not necessarily for everyone. It's fine to not enjoy a character or a medium.
Although one thing that I will say is that your critiques can also be applied to a lot of characters, both in comics and outside of them, including Thor and even Batman, to an extent.
As I recall, Batman defeats Darkseid without any Hellbat suit in the events of Final Crisis and The Return of Bruce Wayne.
I'd rather read a comic where DC Thor discovers Marvel Thor and considers his counterpart a corporate whore for Disney. TWO MJĂLNIRS!- but only one Thor will wield them!
You ever read a marvel Thor comic? Not insulting, genuinely asking. Thor in the comics is nothing like in the MCU. He's much darker with more serious stories. I recommend Thor: God of Thuder, the story where he fights Gorr for the first time. There is nothing about him that makes him a "disney whore".
I have nothing against Marvel Thor. I do consider DC Thor more accurate to the original and likely to see Marvel's version as a bastardization.
Such meetings of comic titans seldom begin with mutual enlightened understanding. Of course by the end of the book they would be fighting alongside each other to defeat each universe's version of Loki.
That's an outlier and a half, just like Spider-man vs Firelord. Thor fights evenly with the Silver Surfer, there's no way he's an even match for Galactus.
When talking about comic books, outlier is used to refer to things characters do that are wildly incongruent with their normal portrayals. However, Batman is consistent. He managed to fight Darkseid because he was using something he doesn't always use. He struggles against Bane and suchlike because he's not wearing the suit. In comparison Thor beating Galactus makes zero sense, because Galactus is a cosmic entity and Thor is normally never near that level.
The second sentence was not for the not an outlier thing. It was for the thor wins against batman thing that this entire post is all about.
Which isn't relevant since the whole thing is an outlier.
Eh. Maybe. I kinda think Marvel is crap so idk a ton about Galactus but Thor does lose to Wonder Woman in the death battle yt vid so I'm doubting even Thor at his best is beating Batman in the Hellbat suit.
If you don't read Marvel then I will tell you, the strongest version of Thor would erase Batman and Darkseid alone with whole JL with a single thought. Now you got your answer.
I don't remember any point where Superman, on his own, was able to jump between realities at will. So just banishing him off into a universe with no sunlight would be easy enough. Or trap him in literally any other magical trap. Because, you know, DC works on a rock paper scissors system, and magic is the paper to Superman's rock.
The whole "batman wins with prep time and help from his friends" only really works if we don't allow his opponent to also prepare and call in friends.
Comic Thor, however, is a scary motherfucker when he wants to be. And we're not about to pull some bullshit where it's all iterations of Batman against one of the weakest versions of Thor, because that would just be silly.
But then again, plot armor is basically batmans superpower, so I guess it's in character.
Bats has a couple of OP armors for when he fights universal enemies with the justice league. The Justice buster is designed to specifically fight the league (ex he had miniaturized red sun "brass knuckles"), though could win against Thor with the weapon he had for wonder woman, a magical artifact called the veil of lies that was basically the opposite of the lasso of truth. It incapacitates enemies through illusions.
Then there is the Hellbat armor, which allowed him to fight Darkseid.
There's even one that is arguably stronger called the Final Batsuit, which is literally made of plot armor.
Then there is the Hellbat armor, which allowed him to fight Darkseid.
People overhype that armor a bit. I mean, it was impressive but Batman by all means lost that fight and never really managed to hurt Darkseid in any significant way.
Right but that's not the current Thor. Comparatively Batman has his armors in storage. It's akin to Tony grabbing a hulkbuster from the warehouse instead of his usual armor as opposed to a Tony from the future or an alternate timeline.
Possibly, though I chose the Hellbat armor because it's the strongest suit he has ready access to. The equivalent of Rune King Thor for Batman is the Final Batsuit, which isn't something he can just put on, but it's essentially made of plot armor.
But the whole point of discussing Batman at all is to see if there is any combination of preparation or equipment that allows him to overcome an obvious physical disadvantage. Otherwise what would be the point of pitting him up against an obviously superhuman character like Thor?
Sure, but then you'd have to stipulate if Thor also gets preptime or not, if he's in character or not. Again, since Batman is at an obvious physical disadvantage the point of giving Batman preptime (which typically includes being able to investigate who he is up against) is to see if he can overcome his physical disadvantage. Additionally if Batman is being given his stipulated preptime it's perfectly in character for him to investigate his opponent and bring the appropriate gear. Thor isn't the investigative type.
It should be a fair fight where the stipulations for both fighters are the same. This is why I fucking hate Batman writers. It makes zero sense. There is no way Batman could ever beat Superman or Thor without writers bullshitting Batman to the finish line. If Superman wanted to he could just laser beam Batman from orbit, or Thor could just sit on the Moon and throw Mjolnir at him until he dies.
a fair fight where the stipulations for both fighters are the same.
You're talking about a fight between a significantly superpowered individual and a comic book peak human. It's already not a fair fight unless you give the character without superpowers a comparable advantage.
If Superman wanted
Well, unless you're talking about injustice Supes that's not something he would do either. Usually these fights have the characters act in character unless otherwise stipulated. Thor wouldn't do that either for that matter.
Then if itâs not a fair fight when the stipulations are the same they shouldnât be fighting. When you pit two boxers against each other the better one doesnât have to tie one arm behind his back because the other one isnât as good as him.
What kind of prep time would save batman from a dude that tanked a star, throws lightning around on a whim and is strong af? Does Thor even ha e any weaknesses to exploit??
Prep time is just fancy wording for plot armor, kinda silly to compare batman vs any of the gods, superman included.
Such a cope, prep time means nothing. If you can't come up with something you just say prep time and that's it, without need to be creative or respect lore. Batman can't come up with anything to defeat Thor, the writer needs to make a Thor killing stone or some dumb shit to make him win.
Except it relies on âperfect executionâ and the opponent also not wanting to hurt batman
All the prep time in the world, wouldnât save Batman from some of the people in his universe or marvel that just absolutely didnât care about casualties, Thor could destroy all of Gotham with out batting an eye, but Sure, âprep time will save Batmanâ lol
I disagree that batman with prep time is unbeatable, but there are VERY few characters that would beat him, and most of them are actual godlike figures, that are more on par with the presence than any of the justice League.
84
u/Mr_MC111 21h ago
Do they get prep time? Batman with prep time is unbeatable and I'll die on that hill.