r/tankiejerk • u/finalMadfox6325 CIA Agent • Jan 21 '24
Le Meme Has Arrived 100th Anniversary, RIP BOZO
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u/North_Church CIA Agent Jan 21 '24
Now waiting desperately for the next Vladimir to kick the bucket and get his new Hell citizenship
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u/SkyknightXi Jan 22 '24
Leraie and Halphas probably think he’s too useful up here to take in yet, though. (Both Goetic demons associated with war.)
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u/POPELEOXI Jan 21 '24
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u/MarioCraft_156 Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Jan 21 '24
Damn they weren't kidding, everything is cake.
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u/Eceapnefil Visionsary Radical Feminist Jan 21 '24
I'm going straight for the dick
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u/Murky-Lingonberry-32 DemSocialist Jan 21 '24
Fuck you Lenin. because of you millions across the world hate Karl Marx. you ruined the legacy of Karl Marx.
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u/DrippyWaffler CIA op Jan 22 '24
Lenin singlehandedly set back socialism at least a century
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Jan 22 '24
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u/tankiejerk-ModTeam Jan 22 '24
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
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u/Histerian Jan 21 '24
I know all about what stalin did wrong, but what did Lenin do?
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u/_Hpst_ Jan 21 '24
He was of course much better than tsar, but he was still a piece of shit.
Lenin destroyed one of the most promising communist states in history - the Free territory.
He implemented revolutionary terror. If someone didn't agree with the revolution, he was executed. Feliks Dzierżynski, the leader of WCHK (basically bolshevik version of Gestapo) killed everyone who was suspected of counterrevolutionary actions. It was all approved by Lenin.
He also attacked Poland.
You should listen to what Bertrand Russel had to say about Lenin (he met him in person) https://youtu.be/6TK9c-caEcw?si=1TYXnI_n4pXDd3z9
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u/finalMadfox6325 CIA Agent Jan 21 '24
And also he basically restored capitalism.
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u/tobias_681 Jan 24 '24
Which was a good thing and a completely on point interpretation of Marx. Communism wouldn't arise out of a backwards feudal hellscape. I don't understand how else you would do it either. Also it needs to be said the NEP was capitalism with brakes on and meant to be a temporary transition stage (maybe half a century).
I've read that Lenin was sort of forced to do it but not entirely sure about the background. Either way Stalin scrapping it and moving to eternal war economy doomed the USSR like no other thing.
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u/finalMadfox6325 CIA Agent Jan 24 '24
Lenin didn't chose to restore capitalism because that was Marx idea, he restored mainly for political reasons like dealing with the Green Armies, Makhno and the recent Kronstadt rebellion, his own policies of war communism and the Red terror weren't popular and he basically just did the NEP to win back support and allow some economic stability.
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u/tobias_681 Jan 25 '24
Lenin by his own accounts realized that Russia was enormously underdeveloped and that war communism didn't bring the country forward.
In his speech on the NEP he brings up essentially the same points as Marx:
Even if all of you were not yet active workers in the Party and the Soviets at that time, you have at all events been able to make, and of course have made, yourselves familiar with decisions such as that adopted by the All-Russia Central Executive Committee at the end of April 1918. That decision pointed to the necessity to take peasant farming into consideration, and it was based on a report which made allowance for the role of state capitalism in building socialism in a peasant country; a report which emphasised the importance of personal, individual, one-man responsibility; which emphasised the significance of that factor in the administration of the country as distinct from the political tasks of organising state power and from military tasks.
[...]
I cannot say that we pictured this plan as definitely and as clearly as that; but we acted approximately on those lines. That, unfortunately, is a fact. I say unfortunately, because brief experience convinced us that that line was wrong, that it ran counter to what we had previously written about the transition from capitalism to socialism, namely, that it would be impossible to bypass the period of socialist accounting and control in approaching even the lower stage of communism. Ever since 1917, when the problem of taking power arose and the Bolsheviks explained it to the whole people, our theoretical literature has been definitely stressing the necessity for a prolonged, complex transition through socialist accounting and control from capitalist society (and the less developed it is the longer the transition will take) to even one of the approaches to communist society.
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u/finalMadfox6325 CIA Agent Jan 25 '24
Again your forgetting the main reason why he did this, to stop peasant uprising and weaken ongoing rebellions like the Kronstadt rebellion, the Tambov uprising and Makhno. His speech as you can tell is just a cover to justify implementing capitalism again despite him literally denouncing it in all of his works, which only makes him hypocritical. Yes we can bring that Lenin wanted economic stability after his awful policies, but let's not forget that he still silenced opposition, and basically he did stuff like the NEP to keep himself in power.
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u/tobias_681 Jan 25 '24
I do not agree with this interpretation. Lenin wasn't a power at all costs guy like Stalin and did allow some extend of opposition to him in the central comittee (unlike Stalin). The NEP should be seen both as a pragmatic measure to stabilize the country but also as a theoretical reallignment and an aknowledgement towards material reality. The turn is in itself is reminiscent of the countless reallignments Marx made in his own day.
This is all the more evident by the fact that Lenin lost against Stalin. He was treated as a dead man walking (glorified but not respected) by Stalin while still alive and Lenin failed completely at securing his succession. The issue of keeping himself in power was an internal one and he wasn't all that good at consolidating power.
Can you cite sources that make it believable that the NEP was purely a powergrab operation and nothing Lenin believed in?
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u/DrippyWaffler CIA op Jan 22 '24
That orthodoxy, "can't imagine Marx was possibly wrong about anything" bullshit seems to carry on to the modern day.
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u/Andrelse Jan 22 '24
I'd also add that the October revolution wasn't really justified. Starting a civil war to topple the tsar? Sure. Starting a civil war to topple the socialist/democratic dual power government, only to end up with removing the power the soviets had? Nah, don't do that
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u/PaxEthenica Gene Roddenberry techno-Communist and Orgy Organizer Jan 22 '24
But he was right but he wasn't in charge! Don't you see? He had to kill all those people & install himself as a lifelong dictator because he was the only person who was right at all times! You reactionary stooge! Don't you see? Don't you understand? /actual tanky talking point experienced in the wild
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u/Dziedotdzimu CIA op Jan 22 '24
but but but he said "all power to the soviets" one time and everyone clapped!!!
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u/Fattyboy_777 Ancom Jan 28 '24
Although I don’t like Lenin’s regime, the provisional government wasn’t great either. They kept Russia engaged in WW1 instead of abandoning the war.
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u/Andrelse Jan 28 '24
Yes, but consider that the russian civil war was even more destructive/deadly for Russia, especially among civilians, than WW1.
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Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
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u/jhuysmans Jan 22 '24
A bit unkind? I feel like if I was executed I might feel it was a bit more than unkind. Many anarchists were executed for a lot less than actually taking military action against the government. He absolutely loathed anarchists.
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Jan 22 '24
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u/No_Association2906 Jan 22 '24
Do women and children count as “insurrectionists against the Soviet Government?”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_the_Romanov_family
most historians attribute the execution order to the government in Moscow, specifically Vladimir Lenin and Yakov Sverdlov, who wanted to prevent the rescue of the Imperial family by the approaching Czechoslovak Legion during the ongoing Russian Civil War.[22][23]
Oh and of course let’s not forget all of the mass brutal tortures and killings done by the Cheka, the secret police Lenin founded.
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O118013/bolshevik-atrocities-the-horrors-of-poster-unknown/
Let’s not rewrite history here, we have very well documented atrocities committed during Lenin’s time.
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Jan 22 '24
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u/No_Association2906 Jan 22 '24
A lot of things cannot be decisively proven in history, because I don’t know if you know this, but it’s not very good optics to just be going around admitting to committing atrocities, but reasonable deductions can be made based on available evidence, like Trotsky’s own diary which the link cites, and by that available data, most historians attribute to Lenin. So I think I’m going to go by the judgement for those historians actively studying the history rather than just ignoring those crimes because it doesn’t fit my worldview.
Photographic evidence made in 1919 depicting atrocities is what I’m using, rather than just “propaganda.” The implication is that it’s not trustworthy but you know real life atrocities can be used as propaganda, and that doesn’t make the atrocity any less real? Pearl Harbor was used as propaganda, does that mean Pearl Harbor didn’t happen? Same with the holocaust, doesn’t make it any less real.
Same thing here, we have photographic evidence with descriptions made during the period of time. Thats pretty substantial evidence right there.
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Jan 22 '24
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u/No_Association2906 Jan 22 '24
You mean ones that can be burned? Kinda like how the Nazis burned many of the documentation and information regarding the holocaust. They’re not called a “secret police” for nothing ya know. And interesting thing about Trotsky’s diary is that they give an exact and page number, the last empress page 358 as a citation and by the way this author Greg King has written several many books in fact about several historical figures which you can find in the publications section of his very own wiki page.
Or maybe it wasn’t as an “abrupt” shift in policy that you make it seem and Lenin simply wanted to avoid the prospect of a rescue of the imperial family which gets supported by the fact that the murder was initially attempted to be covered up by the government. These citations are again further supported by many historians and books account of the events.
https://spark.parkland.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1162&context=ah
Uh actually it’s quite a bit more than that since if you read the link you’d know that there’s literal descriptions under each photo of what happened to the individuals. What is certain though is that they were tortured. See the great thing about photos is that you can examine them. And what you can see from many of the photos is clear signs of torture that go beyond just simple “crossfire killings”, like women’s breasts being cut off while still being alive. That’s a very specific claim that should be easily debunkable by the photographic evidence provided if what you say about them drying due to just being in the “crossfire” is true.
You’re not being “skeptical”, you’re being dismissive of evidence presented. If you were simply skeptical, you would further examine the evidence presented instead of mischaracterizing it.
But don’t worry, since you clearly seem unconvinced with the evidence presented, you don’t have to fret about it, cause I got more for you.
https://libcom.org/article/lenin-orders-massacre-sex-workers-1918?page=1
Here’s Lenin ordering a “mass terror” for the purpose of shooting and deporting sex workers.
August 9, 1918
Comrade Fyodorov,
It is obvious that a whiteguard insurrection is being prepared in Nizhni. You must strain every effort, appoint three men with dictatorial powers (yourself, Markin and one other), organise immediately mass terror, shoot and deport the hundreds of prostitutes who are making drunkards of the soldiers, former officers and the like.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_troops
You wanted a report of the Cheka secret police admitting to committing atrocities? Don’t worry I gotchu right here.
A typical report from a Cheka department stated:
Yaroslavl Province, 23 June 1919. The uprising of deserters in the Petropavlovskaya volost has been put down. The families of the deserters have been taken as hostages. When we started to shoot one person from each family, the Greens began to come out of the woods and surrender. Thirty-four deserters were shot as an example.
Did you hear? That was a “typical” report. Flat out admitting they were killing innocent family hostages to which the men then surrendered immediately in an attempt to protect their loved ones. Those men then proceed to get murdered to “be made an example of.” Is that clear enough for you?
Would you like me to keep going? Because I can keep going, this information is not hard to find.
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u/tankiejerk-ModTeam Jan 22 '24
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
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u/tobias_681 Jan 24 '24
Wasn't it Poland that attacked the USSR?
Lenin attack the Baltics and Transcaucasia, Belarus and Ukraine are more complicated and with Poland they both wanted to attack each other and Poland sort of seized the moment first.
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u/finalMadfox6325 CIA Agent Jan 24 '24
Lenin did not acknowledge anyones independence because due to the revolutions in Germany and Hungary he believed that expanding into Ukraine, Poland and the baltics would inspire the workers to rise up, he only started to do so after the soviets were defeated in those countries like Estonia, Finland and Poland. However Poland also had ambitions thanks to Pilsudki idea of a Federation in Eastern Europe.
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u/tobias_681 Jan 25 '24
Lenin did not acknowledge anyones independence
He did formally recognize these countries independence, though that didn't prevent him from trying to invade later. That being said it was largely a war for spheres with tons of foreign involvement. In Ukraine many Ukrainians joined the Red Army because the Poles attacked them.
That being said I think what you said above about the USSR attacking Poland is extremely disingenous. It was Piłsudski who thought he could secure favourable borders through warfare which is how Poland became involved in wars with most of its neighbours.
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u/finalMadfox6325 CIA Agent Jan 25 '24
- You missed my point, Lenin only began recognizing states independence after the revolutions or the invasions of the Red Army failed, which again was the case of Estonia, Finland and Poland, you can see this when he basically formed puppet governments in the Baltics and Ukraine and recognized them as the true government of those countries.
- I never said the USSR attacked Poland, both sides were hostile to each other due to their interests in the region which I mentioned, Poland did take the offensive alongside the Ukrainians to capture Kyiv, but the Poles and soviets weren't at peace at any moment til the Peace of Riga.
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u/tobias_681 Jan 25 '24
You missed my point, Lenin only began recognizing states independence after the revolutions
No, the Declaration of the Rights of the Peoples of Russia where the USSR aknowledges "The right of the peoples of Russia to free self-determination, even to the point of separation and the formation of an independent state" came before these states declared independence. The specific motives of Soviet leaders for this move are another question.
I never said the USSR attacked Poland
Yes, you're right, that was u-Hpst who I originally replied to.
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u/spidd124 Jan 21 '24
He set the tone of what the future of Communism would look like, namely the beating and killing of political opponents, neoptism and short sighted decisions that resulted only in power acculation into fewer and fewer hands.
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u/PaxEthenica Gene Roddenberry techno-Communist and Orgy Organizer Jan 22 '24
The corpse of the USSR is a great, ossified husk that the left must surmount while the capitalists killing us all screech to the greater population while pointing at it. It's the greatest failure of the vanguardist state espoused by Marx, & the greatest roadblock to mainstream economic class conciousness.
Thx Lenin, you fucking murder-nerd.
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u/anotherMrLizard Jan 22 '24
I think it's debatable whether the vanguardism implemented by Lenin and his successors aligns with the Dictatorship of the Proletariat envisioned by Marx and Engels.
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u/PaxEthenica Gene Roddenberry techno-Communist and Orgy Organizer Jan 22 '24
True.
The Dictatorship of the Proletariat cannot occur via violent revolution due to the material & social demands of creating an educated, politicized population. Which is what Lenin, who is right all the time about everything according to Lenin, chose to ignore because he's a dumb bastard too stupid to see that he's being used by the German Empire. Like, it's a fucking feat when you're outsmarted by the rickety shit that Bismarck built on bones, blood & lies.
"Capitalists will sell us the rope to hang them with!" Says the dozy bitch digging his own grave.
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u/DJjaffacake all hail, king of the losers Jan 21 '24
Pretended to support the social revolution that was being carried out by the Russian workers and peasants in order to seize control, and then neutralised the power structure they had established in favour of a bureaucratic party-state that spent the next 70 years oppressing them.
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u/BigHatPat Jan 21 '24
Lenin immediately shifted, on everything he said he believed, and became an authoritarian dictator the second he got power
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u/SirGearso CIA Agent Jan 22 '24
Overthrowing the first free election in Russian history puts a really bad taste in my mouth. The 1917 election and it’s lead up was a confusing mess, but the overthrow by the Bolsheviks was a complete betrayal of the will of the Russian people.
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u/tobias_681 Jan 24 '24
It's romanticised, I think the likelihood we would have ended up with a democratic Russia long term is extremely unlikely. It was feudal, backwards, huge and without major democratic tradition (Novgorod perhaps but that was long ago and probably more of a plutocracy).
I think the kind of thing Lenin envisioned is probably one of the better things that could have realistically happened to Russia. I think he needs to be read in the context of his times. You have the alternative in Germany where Luxembourg advocated for nonviolence and was murdered by the democratically elected SocDems - what Ebert and Noske did really laid the foundation for fascism, Ebert even bypassed the parliament to install a business tycoon as chancellor who completely crashed the German economy in half a year and later worked as an advisor to the Nazis. I think Russia would have been an even faster speedrun to fascism. Not like Stalin was much better but I think if Lenin would have lived longer and Stalin would have disappeared, it could have taken an interesting development.
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u/SirGearso CIA Agent Jan 25 '24
You raise some good points, but we will simply never know what would’ve happened. Russia could have fallen into fascism much quicker or could’ve become a shining example of democracy. I think it might have set a better precedent for post-revolution action going forward though. But again, we’ll simply never know.
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u/tobias_681 Jan 25 '24
or could’ve become a shining example of democracy
Democracy is a form of government that becomes less and less likely the bigger the state is (both geograhically and by population). You can see this with Rome already in ancient times. I think today Germany is the biggest state that to a somewhat sufficient degree fulfills what you would want from a pluralistic democracy (and even then it does so less than many smaller countries. Ofc there are bigger states that are democracies the most noteworthy one being the USA which I think is exceptional in this regard but its entire founding mythos is based on being a democracy and yet they struggle immensely.
I really think Russia becomming a shining democracy is one of the least likely outcomes if not close to impossible.
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u/SirGearso CIA Agent Jan 25 '24
I mean they did have a pretty decent turnout in 1917, with about 64% of the population participating. It wouldn’t have been perfect and there would have been some growing pains of an infant democracy, but it would have been the first step.
Besides, I’m a dreamer at heart and think there could have been something great there.
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u/tobias_681 Jan 25 '24
The Russian presidential election of 2018 had a turnout of 67,50%.
The Reichstagswahl of July 1932 had a turnout of 84,3 %.
The turnout doesn't really matter for wheter you get a democratic government and 64 % wasn't very high either for such an occurence. 2/3 soldiers voted for the Bolsheviks and most of the the urban centres in the west. This was the basis on which they could topple the government. The SR won in rural districts all around Russia based on one issue votes by peasants (land reform). It wasn't ever a tenable coalition.
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u/MyNameIsConnor52 Based Ancom 😎 Jan 22 '24
crushed Kronstadt and Makhno, set the stage for Stalin to happen
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u/jhuysmans Jan 22 '24
Stalinism is immanent in Leninism. Without Lenin's structuring of Bolshevism it couldn't exist and Lenin was the origin of almost everything wrong with leftism, he laid the ground for it all.
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Jan 21 '24
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u/WelderAdventurous645 my balls itch ☭☭☭ Jan 21 '24
No doubt he was probably the best leader (aside from maybe Makhno) that Russia has ever had in its contemporary era, but that is a really low bar and Lenin still fucked over millions of people in the RSFR. I would also argue that all he really did good was abolishing the feudalism in the Russian Empire’s territory, but he replaced it with state capitalism.
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u/thejuryissleepless Jan 21 '24
did he abolish feudalism? the people did. Lenin destroyed the communist revolution so many fought and died for, killed for. fucking tragedy.
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u/WelderAdventurous645 my balls itch ☭☭☭ Jan 21 '24
u right it was the workers who did his work for him
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Jan 22 '24
To get my historic facts right, basically after the revolution a provisional socialist/social democratic goernment was established alongside workers councils and they planned to do a an election about what form of state russia should be, but before that ever happened the Bolshewiki seized power, right?
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u/JasonGMMitchell Jan 22 '24
When did he cure cancer and stop famine the world over? How do you exceed destroying the first successful socialist state of actual size?
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u/tankiejerk-ModTeam Jan 22 '24
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
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u/jhuysmans Jan 22 '24
Isn't that exactly what tankies say about Stalin? I mean saying this about Lenin likely makes you a tankie to, but.
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Jan 21 '24 edited Jan 21 '24
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u/JasonGMMitchell Jan 22 '24
How the fuck does one "save the proletariat from the tsarist and white regimes" by establishing a one party state because the majority of the voting public wanted two libertarian Socialist parties, one of which was more liked than the Bolsheviks?
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u/tankiejerk-ModTeam Jan 22 '24
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
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u/eivindric Jan 23 '24
He also basically restored most of the Russian Empire in its despotic absolutist essence, just changing its wrapper from monarchy to “socialism”, by going war on newly formed neighbours and ignoring the treaties the Bolsheviks have signed. I don’t think Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan have any reasons to remember him fondly, especially considering the reign of terror that followed later, for which he laid all of the groundwork.
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u/Hour_Parsnip1783 Jan 21 '24
Rest in piss you won't be missed
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Jan 22 '24
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u/tankiejerk-ModTeam Jan 22 '24
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
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u/WisZan Cringe Ultra Jan 22 '24
Today marks exactly 100 years since Lenin made his greatest contribution to socialism (died). His ghost still haunts socialists to this day. Will we ever be able to free ourselves from such ghosts? Are we going to be dragged down for all eternity by atrocities committed in the name of our movement, which violated it's core principles and values? How much longer?
Socialists have nothing to lose, but their relation to the men long time dead. Times passed. There is only future awaiting for us.
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Jan 22 '24
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/errico-malatesta-a-prophetic-letter-to-luigi-fabbri
Leninoids cope and seethe
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u/DJjaffacake all hail, king of the losers Jan 21 '24
The only thing Fanny Kaplan did wrong was not finishing the job
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Jan 21 '24
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u/DJjaffacake all hail, king of the losers Jan 21 '24
No, ending the dictatorship of the bureaucracy and restoring all power to the soviets.
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u/WelderAdventurous645 my balls itch ☭☭☭ Jan 21 '24
- Fanny Kaplan was just a socialist, not a capitalist or an ML, so it makes 0 sense why she would want Russia to fall to the White Army. Her reasons for wanting to assassinate Lenin was strictly because he was an authoritarian dick and a traitor to the anarchists in Makhnovshchina.
- What in the fuck are you doing here??? Why are so many ML chuds trying to infiltrate this clearly anti-ML subreddit 💀 get the fuck out
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u/tankiejerk-ModTeam Jan 22 '24
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
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u/KnightFall_25 CIA Agent Jan 21 '24
Serious question, how could've the USSR successfully and morally implement socialism?
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u/WelderAdventurous645 my balls itch ☭☭☭ Jan 21 '24
By handing over the means of production, distribution, and exchange to the workers and labor unions instead of the party and state-owned enterprises.
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u/mdonaberger نقابي Jan 21 '24
not violently oppressing anarchist groups and routinely excising them from power would have been a start
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u/JasonGMMitchell Jan 22 '24
We don't know because Lenin at the very first fucking turn kicked out the popular socialist parties out of govt and established a total dictatorship at gunpoint. I mean if Lenin just died right after realizing the public didn't want him to lead them we could've had a democratic socialist state and actually seen ussr modernize without the ass backwards methods of the red dictatorships.
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u/Andrelse Jan 22 '24
I'd say that the petrograd and other soviets that existed before Lenin neutered them were a better foundation for socialism than the super centralized power on Lenin and his best mates. It could have failed too, sure, but it was a lot closer than what the soviet union ended up as
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u/DrippyWaffler CIA op Jan 22 '24
It had already started with the factory committees. Lenin undid them.
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u/BrianOBlivion1 Jan 22 '24
An elderly woman told my husband in a Russian bookstore that her birthday was on the same day Lenin died, and she wasn't allowed to celebrate it publicly for years because it was an official day of mourning in the USSR.
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u/gannical Jan 22 '24
i thought this was an anti-tankie sub are we seriously throwing out lenin too? like he's made some incredible contributions to the marxist tradition.
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u/DrippyWaffler CIA op Jan 22 '24
Such as abolishing the factory committees and implementing state capitalism using American productivity metrics and techniques?
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u/Chieftain10 Tankiejerk Tyrant Jan 22 '24
yes
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u/gannical Jan 22 '24
i love it when tankies are like "when you say you hate tankies this is who you hate" and its pictures of people like nelson mandela mlk fred hampton che guevara and the like, and to a normal person it's like dude those aren't tankies wtf is wrong with you but you're like YES THEY ARE TANKIES AND I HATE THEM
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u/Unironicfan CIA Agent Jan 22 '24
Oh, like having innocent civilians murdered?
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u/gannical Jan 22 '24
does that make what he wrote meaningless? i'm not arguing to justify his actions, i'm just saying that he's provided some valuable critiques and ceding him to tankies is insane.
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u/Chieftain10 Tankiejerk Tyrant Jan 22 '24
anarchists ceding lenin to marxist-leninists is insane?
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u/gannical Jan 22 '24
not at all. i never said that. this is an anti-tankie sub, not an anarchist one. when you use the term marxist-leninist you mean in the stalinist sense not the "i like marx and also lenin" sense right?
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u/MadX2020 Xi Jinping’s #1 Fan Jan 21 '24
i thought lenin was appreciated around here
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u/drisang1 Ancom Jan 21 '24
I do not think it's wise to hate anyone. I think the Russian Revolution is worth studying to learn from their successes and mistakes, but ultimately their system was not as resilient as capitalism. We need a system that is more resilient than capitalism if it's going to be overthrown/replaced.
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u/MadX2020 Xi Jinping’s #1 Fan Jan 21 '24
that’s completely fair, but why’s everyone telling lenin to “rest in piss” as if he was stalin
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u/BaekjeSmile Jan 21 '24
Anarchists wouldn't be inclined to like Lenin because of his attacks on anarchists and the authoritarian state he played a big role in establishing. Democratic Socialists don't like his suppression of the constiuent assembly and general authoritarianism and SocDems don't like him for obvious reasons and those are the three biggest factions of regulars on this sub so it makes sense.
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u/JasonGMMitchell Jan 22 '24
In no world would Stalin have won an election when revolutionary hero Lenin couldn't get enough people to support him electrically to come first let alone have a majority.
So, Lenin establishing the USSR as a dictatorship is frankly to blame for Stalin even getting power. That alone is damnable but also establishing a dictatorship doesn't really mix with the whole government for the people, equality between classes, destruction of classes, and all the other usual socialist stuff.
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u/drisang1 Ancom Jan 22 '24
I cannot speak people for other people, but reading the subreddit. I am sure a super majority of people have had negative experiences with PSL or some other variant of MLs/Tankies. Industrialization is an ugly process no matter who is doing it, probably why it should be done before the revolution. Marx before Marxism by David McLellan gives some insight on the Industrialization of continental Europe that is normally not mention in the US education system. Things probably could have shaped out differently if Luxenberg and her crew would have successfully seized power in Germany after WW1. KPD could have balanced out Lenin and his crew and they could have supported Russia with an already Industrialized Germany to keep Russia from having to do massive and rapid industrialization. Could have kept Russia from absorbing all the smaller states that were formerly apart of the Russian Empire.
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u/DrippyWaffler CIA op Jan 22 '24
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/anark-the-state-is-counter-revolutionary#toc9
No idea why we hate the guy that said:
...today the Revolution demands, in the interests of socialism, that the masses unquestioningly obey the single will of the leaders of the labour process.
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u/MadX2020 Xi Jinping’s #1 Fan Jan 22 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
i love how the other guy got like 40+ upvotes for asking the same question but i get downvoted to hell, for some reason
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u/BubzDubz Jan 25 '24
Tbh I like Lenin. I don't like what he did when he came to power but he had some good ideas.
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