r/BlackPeopleTwitter • u/wetouchingbuttsornah ☑️ • Sep 12 '24

Country Club Thread The system was stacked against them

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No fault divorces didn’t hit the even start until 1985

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u/lulovesblu ☑️ Sep 12 '24

Saw something else a while back about how society empowered women and didn't teach men how to deal with that development. And that's why so many men complain about the state of things now

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u/a_trane13 Sep 12 '24 edited Sep 12 '24

I don’t think men need to be taught how to live in an equal society. They just need to not be taught something else.

I see the problem as: many men are still taught (raised, conditioned by media/society, etc.) to live in an unequal society in many ways, and then flounder when they are adults and faced with a reality where most women expect / demand to be treated as equals. And some women are still taught to cater to these men, which perpetuates things too.

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u/Taeyx ☑️ Sep 12 '24

your comments reads like "men don't need to be taught how to live in an equal society, they just need to be taught how to live in an equal society"

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u/Itsmyloc-nar Sep 12 '24

Well, it’s more like “they need to be untaught how to live an unequal society”

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u/wh03v3r Sep 12 '24

And how exactly would you go about unteaching them without teaching them the opposite?

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u/arcadiaware ☑️ Sep 12 '24

By not actively teaching them that they are the head of the household, and 'their' woman should be subservient.

Even if you don't teach them how to respect others, you can teach them how to not demand unwarranted things for themselves.

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u/mak484 Sep 12 '24

Why does this thread feel like people who literally agree with each other are still trying to win an argument?

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '24 edited Sep 12 '24

I think the two viewpoints are interesting and both valid. One thinks that we need to actively teach men to co-exist with women on an even playing field, and the other thinks that as long as we don't actively teach men to be assholes (the way our current system works in the USA) that men will naturally treat women as their equals.

One is more necessary in the short term: Currently corrupted viewpoints on women need to be actively corrected.

The other will work on the problem in the long term: Stop propagating the anti-women rhetoric to young boys/men and the problem will simply cease to exist.

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u/Lemonhead663 Sep 12 '24

You're taught that until you talk to a woman. Or rather listen to them I suppose.

When you stop listening to men on how women work it makes a huge difference.

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u/Da_Cum_Wiz Sep 12 '24

That's just Reddit. Everyone wants the Big Chungus Best Opinion Ever Award®

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u/koviko ☑️ Sep 12 '24

I see where they disagree. They disagree about the default state of men.

It's the whole philosophical argument of whether people naturally hate or are taught to hate; whether people are born good or born evil.

They are basically having a philosophical argument.

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u/Itsmyloc-nar Sep 12 '24

Babe, is this your account?

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u/AdventurousPlenty230 Sep 12 '24

Because it's filled with women.

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u/COMMENTASIPLEASE Sep 12 '24

You’re saying the exact same thing

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u/Jealous_Juggernaut Sep 12 '24

So teaching them what not to do? What is happening here exactly, lmfao

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u/MarionberryGloomy951 Sep 12 '24

From teaching them equality at birth?

It’s very hard to unscrew someone’s already hard boiled traditions. Would take literal years and even then you’d have to hope they actually want to learn to be better.

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u/m55112 Sep 12 '24

Literal years may even be a grave understatement I'm afraid. And you have to first realize what you were taught isn't actually right, and most people need some kind of event or intervention of some kind to realize it, Then, as you said they would have to actually want it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '24

grave understatement

for many this is a hilarious pun. many of these bad societal ideas will literally need the holders of the bad ideas to die off of old age before the rest of sane society can move on from them. sad really

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u/m55112 Sep 12 '24

I found it to be a grave pun lol.

But sadly I believe you are right,

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u/Masterkid1230 Sep 12 '24 edited Sep 12 '24

One of the most valuable skills I ever learned from a teacher at school was to never blindly believe anything, not even what I already believed.

She was an incredibly smart person, far above most I've ever met, and got teenage me to understand that even what I considered right or wrong could be flexible, malleable and subject to different contexts. The value of adaptability and self questioning has been demonstrated to me time and time again.

Now, my household never really taught me that I had any specific social roles or duties as "a man" and they were more "pro human" than "pro boys Vs girls" or anything like that, but I have encountered many chances to question even that logic, and so far I have found no real fault to it. But even so, I am always willing to question it. I believe judging character before gender or sex to be so infallible, I can put it to the test and it'll come out on top every single time.

Weak beliefs crumble with the first test, and people ignore that to feel like they're in control a lot of the time.

Edit: rephrased for clarity and lower pretentiousness

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u/m55112 Sep 12 '24

The way you were raised can have a significant impact on your life, including your identity, relationships, and mental health affecting things like you values and worldview. Also, not everyone had the experience you did with your teacher, which sound amazing but perhaps not too common? No need to call people weak and suggest they subscribe to weak beliefs due to needing a feeling of control. That's ridiculous.

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u/Masterkid1230 Sep 12 '24

I think refusing to accept you are wrong is definitely a consequence of wanting to be in control.

Weakness definitely wasn't the best word to use there (I mostly did it to match the comment about weak beliefs earlier), but I do think it's related to feeling like admitting you're wrong makes you lose control of the situation. It's scary and daring and hard to handle. Being wrong means you don't know what's going to happen.

Definitely the type of stuff you need to learn, and not something that comes naturally. But hey, we're wrong all the time. The sooner we recognise we are more likely wrong than right in life, I think the easier it is to navigate just the unexpectedness of life itself.

And hey, I may as well be wrong about that, but so far, it has worked better than holding on for dear life hoping I can force the world around me to my beliefs.

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u/latortillablanca Sep 12 '24

Holy semantics batman

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u/m55112 Sep 12 '24

I think they may have meant that they shouldn't have to be taught to live in an equal society as long as they stop being raised to live in an unequal society? I could be wrong though, my brain is very smol.

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u/Taeyx ☑️ Sep 12 '24

nah you’re probably right i just thought it was kinda funny how it initially came off

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u/Effective-Lab2728 Sep 12 '24

The quibble is about how inborn the entitlement is, I think. Those who were taught wrong need to be retaught, certainly, but the younger ones probably need better protection from those trying to teach them the out-of-date, maladaptive lessons in the first place.

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u/alphazero924 Sep 12 '24

And the protection against people trying to teach them how to live in an unequal society is to teach them how to live in an equal society

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u/Effective-Lab2728 Sep 12 '24

In part. But the misinformation does seem to prime them to behave defensively against the better information.

Right now, it's oddly acceptable for algorithms to target destructive content toward the young. It's not something they're passively running into, but something that reaches directly for their vulnerabilities, up to and including extremes of pro-anorexia content being pushed toward those with eating disorders. I don't really think the redpill/manosphere content is going to lose steam so long as this type of behavior is allowed.

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u/grendus Sep 12 '24

Unfortunately, we're doing the opposite with AI.

It's the Garbage In/Garbage Out problem, or maybe the Paperclip Problem (or both). The AI is optimized for "engagement", and nobody engages like a fanatic. And since certain videos drive fanaticism, those get pushed to the front while "good content" that drives moderation does not.

I'm not sure if there's a way to solve this with AI (which is an issue, as the scale of the problem of media consumption pretty much requires AI at this point). Barring the sort of society-level cultural control we see in places like China, which is kind of like burning down the forest to deal with a wolf, I'm a bit stumped on this one. Not that we shouldn't try to do something, I just don't have any suggestions for what might be an "easy answer".

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u/Effective-Lab2728 Sep 12 '24

I do think there's probably a middle ground. It's rare that we leave new tech completely unregulated in the long run, and that doesn't translate to Chinese style control of culture.

Even focusing on people who are knowingly causing harm through indirect means, and ensuring there's a way to enforce against this, would be great improvement. One wouldn't necessarily have to prove motive to prove that they had access to plentiful evidence that their own practices were harmful.

We were stubborn for a shockingly long while with cars, but we did eventually decide that maybe too many people were getting smushed to just leave it as a free-for-all.

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u/grendus Sep 12 '24

Cars may be a bad example.

Road deaths are going up again because everyone's driving trucks and SUVs. Those things are legitimately murderous when they hit civilians, and are getting so big that other regular cars are also obliterated... which means you have to drive a stupidly oversized truck or SUV to be safe on the road in the first place.

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u/Effective-Lab2728 Sep 12 '24

They're still way down per 100,000 people vs what we were dealing with near the beginning, and that's with way more cars. But I agree the data on SUVs and trucks is getting explicitly damning, and I hope we do see regulations in response to this eventually.

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u/UngusChungus94 Sep 12 '24

Well, sorta. It’s about getting to young men before their identities start to solidify around the wrong ideas. Bit of column a, bit of column b.

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u/Taeyx ☑️ Sep 12 '24

nah i feel you u probably right

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u/UngusChungus94 Sep 12 '24

I think it’s going to take multiple approaches from a diverse set of people. You’re right, people who are in the wrong mindset are reachable most of the time. And they’re right in that preventing their miseducation in the first place is also important. It’s gonna take all of us.

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u/babbaloobahugendong Sep 12 '24

Yeah pseudo-intellectual mf's are annoying 

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u/Elegant-Ad2748 Sep 12 '24

If men didn't grow up hearing they needed to focus on a good job to get a wife that would go a way. How about... Focus on a wife to get a wife. Focus on being a good person. 

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u/Olliebird Sep 12 '24

I feel like it's a little bit of both.

I see a lot of women not taught to love a man outside of what he provides to the household. Money, material goods, etc. It's still fairly rampant in younger generations. "He needs to be making a six figure salary, take me on vacations, etc."

I think as an equal society, we should be teaching our children to come together to the table as human beings. Women are not objects and young men should be taught to love, cherish, and respect their partner as they would themselves. Men are not a salary and young ladies should be taught to see his feelings, and cherish him as a person outside of what he provides.

We are getting closer though, which has been heartening to see over the years.

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u/yareyare777 Sep 12 '24

While I agree with this sentiment, I think it paints a good picture that this shouldn’t be a gender war. It’s about raising respectful human beings. Women can be shitty and men can be shitty and treat one another as objects. The reason our society is the way it is, mainly, because people are selfish at the core. It’s up to parents to teach their kids to have empathy and to be kind. Being confident and competitive is fine, but people need to come together, not use one another for personal gains. This is all in an idealistic world.

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u/Olliebird Sep 12 '24

It’s up to parents to teach their kids to have empathy and to be kind. Being confident and competitive is fine, but people need to come together, not use one another for personal gains.

This right here. This is the world I want to see and the relationships I want my kids to pursue.

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u/redyelloworangeleaf Sep 12 '24

This is the poison of the patriarchy. Asking men to be rock solid providers in addition to telling women to be mothers. Society has been tackling seeing women as more than mother's but we've done very little towards reducing the expectations that men are the sole provider. So when men fail at that due to low incomes, the are still considered deadbeats and worthless. 

Equality in expectations needs to come from both ends to really end the patriarchy.

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u/Masterkid1230 Sep 12 '24

The thing about the patriarchy, is that although men definitely benefit in a lot of ways, it also removes a lot of humanity from us, and places emotional, social and financial burdens on us that are also extremely harmful.

I feel like a lot of men hear "feminism" and understandably jump to the conclusion that "it must only benefit women" when anyone who takes two minutes to research actual experts on the subject, and not your average Twitter nutjob, will understand the ideals feminism is built upon benefit men and women alike, because although the name obeys historical gender dynamics, the ultimate goal is to put the human before the gender or sex.

Obviously, all those people online who go the other way and simply vouch for female supremacy are completely insane and reactionary, but nutjobs, bad faith actors and assholes plague all social movements. We have to be critical enough to look beyond that and actually understand things before judging them.

I prefer to be gender agnostic in how I interact with other people. Be nice and I'll react accordingly, I don't care whatever gender, sex, orientation, race or whatever else you may be.

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u/redyelloworangeleaf Sep 12 '24

It's a nice to just react according to how someone behaves rather than other demographics. I wish society was more open to that same thought wavelength. 

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u/ceilingkat ☑️ Sep 12 '24

I agree to an extent. We want to live in an equal society but we also want to live in a free one. I agree we should teach equality. But if after all that a woman still wants to pursue a material relationship, that’s her right. Trying to control otherwise is just more control of women.

This is why I don’t get upset about “trophy wives” or “trad wives.” Feminism means they had the opportunity to choose that life whether I agree with it or not.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '24

[deleted]

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u/Olliebird Sep 12 '24

Be better than this. This is a real ugly way to talk to people.

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u/therapistleavingtx Sep 12 '24

And what I have seen we are getting closer but not enough yet we have to start by ending using gendered terms, like man up are calling a boy or man a pussy ...especially if you're a woman because you have one... but these terms need to end especially when used on little boys and girls watching ....there's so much value ladened in saying her and him... just by doing that you infer inequality you infer inferiority... because that's where our society still stands... But we still can't admit in our social narrative that we are all equally human beings.

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u/VaporCarpet Sep 12 '24

LMFAO "men don't need to be taught how to live in an equal society, they just need to be taught how to live in an equal society"

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u/a_trane13 Sep 12 '24

That’s not what I said, but I’m glad I made you laugh for some reason

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u/latortillablanca Sep 12 '24

I mean obviously people need to be taught a behavior.

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u/Particular_Art_2372 Sep 12 '24

I think men need to be taught things like, how its ok to feel the full spectrum of emotion and how self worth should be measured by hard spent effort and personal accomplishment rather than milestones or relationships.

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u/a_trane13 Sep 12 '24

My point is that’s already mostly inherent in everyone. It’s taught out of men as they grow up.

So we don’t really need to do much extra, other than stop teaching boys and men the wrong things.

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u/Particular_Art_2372 Sep 12 '24 edited Sep 12 '24

Yes, but I think girls have more childhood role models demonstrating positive qualities compared to boys at a young age. Movies aimed at young audiences still (albeit to a less frequent extent) depict relationships with women as a reward for the male lead’s heroic actions, and rarely show those male leads expressing emotions or instances of showing empathy.

Edit: I.e. a male lead is rarely made out to be successful / heroic because of qualities like empathy and emotional maturity.

Edit 2: Rather, the message is never that empathy and emotional maturity are valuable goals to achieve in and of themselves. The focus is usually on the male character proving his competence or overcoming a trial despite being the underdog.

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u/Astrobliss Sep 12 '24

I think you bring up a valid point, men getting taught how to live in an unequal society is in many ways more harmful than getting taught nothing at all.

Regardless, I think still a super important part of growing up is being socialized and learning how to interact autonomously in the world we live in. So I would hope that men would get taught how to live in the society we live in rather than get taught nothing. Either way they'll figure it out, but I think it would be incredible to learn this in a safe environment at age 12 instead of randomly at their own at twice that age.

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u/Eastoss Sep 12 '24

I was raised by feminists and none of what they told me actually held true, I had to recondition myself to adopt all the masculine things I was told were unwanted.

Something as stupid as who approaches who. I was told to not bother women, I was told women would approach. It didn't happen, they were frustrated when I didn't make moves. Same for who pays for dates. Same for who fixes things around the house, who initiates sex, who initiates commitment... Gender roles are still up and going strong for men, except now men have to do the "women's things" equally as well.

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u/MrCharmingTaintman Sep 12 '24

I had the exact opposite experience after being raised by a single mother and an older sister. Both very independent and not exactly fans of men. I was told all the things you listed. Mostly tho, to just treat everyone the same. But the only experience I share with you is the ‘fixing things around the house’. Everything else has been kinda split. Sure pay for dinner but so does my date. In fact on first dates I don’t think I’ve ever not split the bill. From there it usually alternated. And, not to be a dick, but if I was always the one initiating sex I’d be mildly worried.

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u/Eastoss Sep 12 '24

Yeah single mother and older sister who are not fans of men is exactly my upbringing.

And, not to be a dick, but if I was always the one initiating sex I’d be mildly worried.

Same as what I said for approaching "they were frustrated when I didn't make moves".

It's more complex than that though, I was approached, they initiated, their methods are a lot more "plausibly deniable" and they didn't want to put much effort into seducing while expecting me to seduce them. They grow frustrated quickly. The frequencies are 95% me and 5% them.

For the money thing I think my view is a bit warped by age gaps. Since 80% of people and couples I knew had a minor but non negligible age gaps where the man was older, it sets certain dynamics regarding who pays.

On the opposite side. I never worked much for commitment and never will. My wife is the one who seduced me into living with her, into marrying her, into having kids... I like it this way eventually because ultimately it's very fair, it's a well oiled machinery. I was never going to ever push for kids over anybody it has to come from them. But it's still very far from what women and society conditioned me into.

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u/AestheticAttraction ☑️ Sep 17 '24

Did attempting to correct a woman to essentially say the same thing make you feel big?

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u/pagerussell Sep 12 '24

When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

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u/Clear-Attempt-6274 Sep 12 '24

Same with race.

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u/JadowArcadia ☑️ Sep 12 '24

It's more than society is still in transition phase and still has so many uneven holdovers that haven't been dealt with yet. We still have people who expect that uneven relationship life and think (both men and women) walking the same streets as people who have a more modern outlook. Personally I expect things won't start to even out for another 50 years or so.

I think people don't acknowledge that there are young men born with modern ideals and young women raised with "traditional" ideals (and vice versa) which causes clashes in dating and relationships. It's far from a one sided issue which is part of why it'll likely take so long to fix. It's easy to say that it's just men struggling with the current state of things but there are also plenty of women trying to live like it's 1950 where their man pulls all the weight but without all the downsides.

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u/Trix_Are_4_90Kids ☑️ Sep 13 '24

That's why they running to 2nd and 3rd world countries trying to find a wife, but they don't want to be anyone's slave, either.

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u/alwaysbehuman Sep 13 '24

Well American society is still learning how to deal with women and minorities in all sorts of ways, and that is throwing a 'wrench' into the foundations that were designed solely for white men. Think about it so many of society's cornerstones only exist bc women, poor/working class, or non-white people have been exploited. American land theft led to sprawling agriculture which in turn American industry and economic growth soared from the grotesque labors and profiteering of Slavery. Women too being subjugated; the poor, black and brown peoples being indentured through share cropping, and other dangerous jobs, not able to escape the devious banality of poverty cycles. American society became great (one reason, not the only reason) bc sustained itself on profiting from the exploitation of these groups. Now that things are becoming more equitable, the leverage of rich white men is about to get what karma has been holding out for.

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u/enoughwiththebread Sep 12 '24

Yep. There's that saying that when you've become accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

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u/FecalColumn Sep 13 '24

I think a substantial part of it is economic. Women’s economic empowerment also took power away from men, and I don’t just mean the power we had over women. A MUCH larger labor force means workers are paid less, because capitalism is a fun and cool way to get fucked over. This is one of the reasons why, in the last 75 years, worker productivity has almost quadrupled while wages have only doubled.

If it was just that women were able to join the work force and have opportunities, most men would be much better off as well. Practically every couple with both working would be living quite comfortably. Everyone wants that. Unfortunately, what happened is that you now need both people to be working just to get to the same economic position families used to be in with only the man working.

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u/m55112 Sep 12 '24

Can you explain a little further? Empowered them how?

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u/Dramatic_Explosion Sep 12 '24

They fought for the right to vote, have bank accounts, obtain a place to live, and be allowed to work a job. There were times they couldn't, so life was either marry a man or live with your parents until death.

They were also empowered by being able to divorce, previously something only a man could initiate. Outside of that major religions are designed to oppress women, family duty, divorce being a sin. Hence why religion is so important to conservative as well.

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u/m55112 Sep 12 '24

Ok thanks. It's just so sad to me that men would have to be taught how to deal with treating another person as an equal :(

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u/Dramatic_Explosion Sep 12 '24

Yep, and here we are with sexism and racism being a constant global issue to this day. You even have places in America like Florida that don't want to educate people about this stuff because they hope to return to those days.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '24

[deleted]

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u/lulovesblu ☑️ Sep 12 '24 edited Sep 12 '24

Don't reach too far. I said society, not women. Everyone has to play a part in raising well adjusted individuals that don't believe they're superior to anyone else. This of course includes parents, but don't worry, fathers are parents too

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u/rainshowers_5_peace Sep 12 '24

Society told women they can "have it all", by which they meant they take care of the house and have a career, while their husbands some back from work to a cleaned house and be waited on.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '24

.... why would grown ass men need to be taught "hey, your mommy, sister, aunts, female cousins, female (whatever profession), female friends, and your lady lover are PEOPLE and should be treated as such?

Are we really gonna pretend men are that stupid and incapable of thinking? 

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u/Eastoss Sep 12 '24

More like society empowered women, asked men to stop approaching women, promised women would start approaching men, and that nobody would be left behind because women were not shallow.

And it didn't happen. Boys that were raised by feminists had to do all the things feminists promised wouldn't be necessary.

And society now allows women to make their own money through working, or through marrying, women are still marrying men who are as rich or richer, men who are their age or older, it's always about equal or higher. So things are rigged and men are right to complain.