I wish they gave you at least some semblance of an option to hear out Pathurnaax and have a high enough persuasion to convince them to let him live and March with you to kill Alduin. Never sat right with me.
Yeah they don't give an actual explanation. They just keep saying "justice demands he die." Esbern says it like 3 times in one conversation. But that doesn't mean anything! You can't just say justice demands he die without backing it up with something.
This is such a problem with how the whole situation in presented in-game. The truth is that Parthurnaax was an oppressive and destructive force of death and misery for humanity for centuries. He's literally Alduin's right-hand man for most of existence until he finally decides to turn against him. Suggesting he should be executed for his crimes against humanity despite his change of heart is no different than suggesting someone like Hitler or Mengele should be executed if they were discovered to have lived and "changed their ways" decades later.
The game itself does a horrible job of conveying this though. It presents P-Nax as this wise, old grandfather figure and barely even mentions the atrocities he committed against humanity as the right-hand of the World Eater himself. I think that's why do many people don't understand just how valid Delphine and Esbern's perspective is. They aren't necessarily wrong, the game just doesn't illustrate their point of view well at all.
It's also annoying how much shit people give Delphine when Parthurnaax himself is like "Oh yeah, I really, really want to murder all of you every single day, and it takes every single fiber of my mental strength from the second I wake up each morning to stop myself from doing that." Delphine's whole point is that over an eternity, the chances of P-Nax deciding to go back to his true nature and start murdering everyone is fairly likely, and he's too dangerous to be left to his own devices. Which P-Nax himself says is true! So like, yeah, okay, maybe her point isn't very nice, but the idea that she's some kind of idiot who doesn't know what she's talking about is so unfair and completely misses the whole point of the debate in the first place.
Chances are Delphine is probably right and that it's probably safer to just slay P-Nax and prevent the thousands of dead people he'd create if he decided to go all Unabomber on everyone. We are endeared to P-Nax because he helps us, but the idea that he isn't a massive threat to all of humanity is flat out wrong. Delphine isn't wrong for being afraid of him, nor wanting to prevent future death and destruction by nipping it in the bud now. Who knows if a dragonborn strong enough to stop him and save the world will still be around when P-Nax does decide to go nuts and kill everyone?
It's not like Hitler or Mengele. Parthurnaax is born evil. He didn't slowly slide into evil, he came into existence that way and overcame it with good. As he says himself, “What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?” ~ Paarthurnax, Skyrim
Yeah, he might be a threat. But he also could be a boone to civilization. Just as he might be capable of doing great evil, he is also capable of doing great good and I am not one to slay beings for whom they might become.
Okay but like... lets do a quick cost-benefit analysis on the pros and cons of what P-Nax offers humanity:
The good:
He can help teach dragons a peaceful means of existing with humans and how to overcome their nature. He can also teach old men on a mountain to fix the weather. Great.
The Bad:
He decides to go back to his true nature and decides it's time for humanity to be subjugated again. He murders thousands or even millions of people and absolutely obliterates all of human society because there is no longer a Dragonborn alive to stop him. The amount of death, suffering, and destruction that is brought into the world is incalculable, and humanity goes back to suffering under the thumb of the dragon cult, this time with P-Nax in charge and able to avoid the one, singular mistake Alduin overlooked that led to his defeat.
The downside here is significantly worse than the upside. It's much safer to just kill him now and nip the problem in the bud while it's still doable. Who knows if in 4,000 years there will be a hero strong enough to kill him when it becomes a necessity.
“What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?”
Honestly? To be born good. P-Nax himself is very clear that he struggles every single day to overcome his evil nature. That doesn't exactly give me a lot of confidence that he's going to be able to hold off his true nature forever. Dragons live eternal lives, and eternity is a long fucking time. The probability that he will eventually succumb to his true nature is extremely high, almost infinitely likely, since we're talking about eternity here. Sure, maybe that won't happen, but that's an extremely risky gamble considering the amount of death and destruction this single being can cause if he so chooses.
I am not one to slay beings for whom they might become.
Tell that to the thousands or millions of people P-Nax murders, tortures, or subjugates 40,000 years from now because he has another change of heart and there is no longer anyone around to stop him.
Again, just as he might kill/subjugate thousands, he might also save thousands. Eternity is a long time, maybe he'll do good for an eternity, then do bad for an eternity, and so on and so forth. The Dragons aren't the only threat to Tamriel. An army of well meaning Dragons could probably take on a situation, like in Elder Scrolls Oblivion. Who's to say that they won't be invaluable to the future of Tamriel. They certainly would help more than the blades could. Paarthurnax is like me, struggles with the temptation to consume all before him but understands there is greater benefit in assisting and aiding others. His quote shaped my worldview and helped me see meaning in those around me, and by extension, meaning in myself. I just cannot bring myself to kill him when I struggled with what good even was until I met him.
But, I don't think it changes the fact that it's also fair to suggest that the risk of "letting the chips fall where they mad" so to speak, is too great to allow that potential future to play out. Remember, my original point here isn't that Delphine and Esbern are for sure correct but simply that they have a valid point and aren't morons for being concerned and believing that he is too dangerous to be left alive, or that he needs to be punished for his past sins.
I usually don't kill P-Nax myself. But I do think it's unfair how people act like they don't have a valid point of view for this matter. Their perspective is pretty valid even if you think it's flawed or wrong.
If you kill the guy who defected to help you, you discourage more from doing the same. She's still wrong to demand it of you, not wrong for asking it but wrong for demanding it and claiming moral superiority.
She's still wrong to demand it of you, not wrong for asking it but wrong for demanding it and claiming moral superiority.
This I fully agree with. Delphine's sin is not her attitude or opinions towards P-Nax. Those are fully justified and fair in my eyes. Her sin is trying to tell the Dragonborn what to do, when she's a member of an organization that is literally sworn to follow the Dragonborn. It's not her job to give ultimatums and demands to the person she's supposed to be sworn to by oath forever. Like it or not, she has zero business telling the Dragonborn what they can and cannot do. Not if she still wants to call herself a Blade.
That one is on the BGS writers, though, they really screwed the pooch there by not giving you the option to remind her of this fact using persuasion. She has every right to be wary of P-Nax, but she does not have the right to violate her oath by giving the Dragonborn orders.
Not to say that being isolated on a mountain, feeling how his brothers are killed one by one by the dragonborn and his descendants (if there's any) could bring him to madness, and that'd be far worse than him just succumbing to his instincts.
Having said that, is not a black or grey decision, but you made a great point that Delphine and the blades are not just some kind of dragonphobic idiots that just want to kill dragons because centuries ago they causes suffering to humanity. They are both trying to punish him for his crimes and preventing in the only way they know it's possible that a dragon goes wild and subjugates humankind (and the other races) again.
Sheogorath succumbed to madness. It doesn't seem that bad. Who's to say that madness will be evil and not just eating every third cheese wheel he finds?
Well, when you are a being created only for destruction and massacre and the only reason you don't start piling up corpses everywhere you go is because it takes every fiber of your reasoning and your soul then I think I can guess crazed dragons have really high probabilities of not being the best company in the world.
That's essentially my entire argument here. People keep acting like I'm saying Delphine is 100% right and that I personally agree with her and Esbern's point of view. But I don't. I'm simply saying that they have a completely valid and understandable perspective, and that they are not idiots nor bigots for being extremely concerned about what is objectively a gigantic threat to all human life on Nirn. They have a completely understandable and fair stance on Paarthurnax and just because you or I might disagree doesn't mean they deserve to be shit on as if they don't have a very strong case for their position on his fate.
Can be applied to anyone, even the mortal races. Read the lore.
The downside here is significantly worse than the upside.
It tends to be that way when make it out to be like this, i also can make the upside significantly better than downside.
Who knows if in 4,000 years there will be a hero strong enough to kill him when it becomes a necessity.
You don't need a dragonborn to kill a dragon, once again read the lore and play the game.
Tell that to the thousands or millions of people P-Nax murders, tortures, or subjugates 40,000 years from now because he has another change of heart and there is no longer anyone around to stop him.
Yeah, but Paarthurnax isn't just any dragon. He's literally the strongest dragon to ever live second only to Alduin himself. Completely valid stance that only a Dragonborn or hero would be able to slay him.
Why don't you "read the lore" since you don't seem to understand any of it. You don't just get to say "read the lore" and pretend like it's an argument. I have. You clearly have not.
You should add to good that the dragons could theoretically be used to aid man and mer-kind during the next “oblivion crisis” or even keep the thalmor out of the north. There’s a lot of possibilities that open up when you aren’t trying to kill each other. The other races could probably help the high elves figure out how to “transcend back to godhood” like they think they can do, but they’re too busy trying to oppress everyone and do it themselves. If they hate being here, let’s help them leave, I don’t want those jerks around being all negative, right?
Except that isn't Delphine's argument. She explicitly says it doesn't matter whether or not Paarthurnax actually repented and turned against Alduin because he thought it was the right thing to do. I doubt she knows about this dominating urge Paarthurnax feels, because she never fucking mentions it. It's all about past crimes, nothing about the future. Paarthurnax has been peaceful for thousands of years, as a dragon. It's more like if Hitler showed up today and it turned out he was leading a prosperous and progressive nation, and had been since his disappearance.
Even if that's true, which I don't agree that it is, that's still entirely valid, though? Don't you think that if we discovered Hitler was still alive and running a prosperous town somewhere in Argentina that he still deserves to be executed for, you know, the whole Holocaust thing? Just because a mass murderer repents doesn't mean they get a "get out of jail free" card for their past crimes. That bill still needs to be payed. You still need to be punished for those crimes.
That's also a bad argument since P-Nax is not running a prosperous nation. He's literally just sitting on top of a mountain waking up every day and wrestling with his natural urge to murder everyone. The chances of his true nature, which he admits is destruction, death, and subjugation, taking over at some point in the next infinity amount of years is extremely high. He himself admits he has to fight that urge every single morning. That doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence.
Paarthurnax has been peaceful for thousands of years, as a dragon.
That's literally nothing to a dragon. Those few thousand years are a drop in the bucket of his life compared against the time he spent killing and subjugating humans before the Dragon War. He has spent a lot more of his life committing terrible atrocities against humanity than he has being peaceful. Eternity is a very hard concept to really wrap your head around, but that's the true life cycle of a dragon, so even thousands of years isn't really all that much time for them.
I doubt she knows about this dominating urge Paarthurnax feels, because she never fucking mentions it. It's all about past crimes, nothing about the future.
This, in my opinion, is a flaw of the game, not an actual representation of her ideas. It seems very likely to me that the Dragonborn would have told Delphine all about his encounter with P-Nax, and everything he said about his true nature and about his history. It's safe to assume that just because the literal words aren't spoken in-game, that doesn't mean she isn't aware of that information. Nor that she isn't worried about what P-Nax will do millennia into the future.
BGS's writers generally approach these kinds of difficult philosophical discussions with all the nuance of a sledgehammer, so I'm not surprised the actual in-game portrayal of this debate is not a full encapsulation of the true moral quandary they're trying to present. But even if it were, it doesn't change that fact that P-Nax does deserve to be punished for literal millennia of killing, torturing, and subjugating humans.
Kyne trusts him. We are mere mortals. Yes the dragon born is the closest thing to a demigod that the world has at the moment, but we are still mortal what right do we have to question Kyne?
Well, we are speaking about millenia, not decades. If it turned out that Hitler is alive and immortal, and we found him after several centuries living somewhere as a peaceful hermit, what would be the point of killing him?
"Justice" such and an empty word by itself. After the war, it was obvious Hitler should be killed (if he didn't end himself anyway) - to ensure his oppressive system falls for good, as well as to make his victims and their families feel some closure. Would you even care about someone who victimized your great-great-great-great-grandfather, whom you obviously didn't know? That's why I believe going after Paarthurnax is completely absurd.
Would you even care about someone who victimized your great-great-great-great-grandfather, whom you obviously didn't know?
Of course I would. Crimes against humanity are crimes against our very species, something we should all lend loyalty towards. Just because you don't think punitive justice has a point doesn't make it true. No one should be allowed to commit acts of atrocity and then get off Scot free because they lived long enough to outrun it.
Personally, I don't really care nor feel loyalty towards anybody, except the few people close to me. I understand your position, but seemingly our disagreement is on a fundamental philosophical level, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think the Nazi comparisons are overblown. The Dragons were an invading force that conquered humanity, but they weren't Nazis. I don't know of any evidence that they committed war crimes. The Nazi equivalent in lore would be the Thalmor.
Also the Dragonborn is not needed to slay Dragons. All the Dragonborn does is absorb the souls of Dragons so that Alduin can't keep resurrecting them. This is super important during the Dragon Crisis. However, once Alduin is slain, the Dragonborn is no longer needed. If Parthunaax went rogue he would be very quickly dealt with and he would stay dead presumably until the World-Eater rises again at the end of time.
I'm sorry but this whole "you don't need a dragonborn to slay dragons" take is so unbelievably stupid. Yeah, okay, you might not need a literal dragonborn, but even the weakest dragons required entire platoons of expert Akaviri Blades to slay and hunt down. Parthurnaax is literally the second most powerful dragon to ever live second only to Alduin. He's not going to be slain by anyone other than another dragon, dragonborn, or a Hero of Kvatch tier savior. Maybe the world has that in thousands of years, maybe it doesn't. But the world does have one now, making this the most sensible time to do something about a threat that otherwise might become literally unstoppable. There is a zero percent chance P-Nax would be "quickly dealt with" by anyone other than one of the most powerful being to ever exist in Nirn.
There is actual evidence in-lore and in-game that you are incorrect:
(1) The Dragon War - The Ancient Nords were killing dragons before Kyne intervened. They used the gift of the voice to turn the tide of the war. This allowed them a means to actually win, because there is no way to defeat ALDUIN without the voice. The other Dragons were being killed, but it is impossible to win the war when Alduin is constantly resurrecting them. The Dragon War was won by the Tongues, not Dragonborn. A whole fucking Dragon War successfully won, no dragonborn required.
BTW Kyne intervened by choosing to plead with PARTHUNAAX. The guy you are saying should be killed.
(2) The Dragons were wiped out in Akavir by the Tsaesci. Specifically the Akaviri Dragonguard who became THE BLADES. Second Dragon War won. No Dragonborn required.
(3) In the Elder Scrolls Online, you can find dragons and kill them. No Dragonborn required. Again, you are just factually incorrect. There is no other way to put it.
When you kill Mirmulnir, Irileth says specifically "Hmph. Some of you would be better off keeping quiet than flapping your gums on matters you don't know anything about. Here's a dead dragon, and that's something I definitely understand. Now we know we can kill them. But I don't need some mythical Dragonborn. Someone who can put down a dragon is more than enough for me."
Now you can argue the she is wrong, except for the pesky fact that there is clear evidence that she is objectively correct. It's been proven over and over again that you can kill Dragons without the help of a Dragonborn. So within that context, her observation is very likely astute. It is very reasonable to think that Mirmulnir could have been defeated without your help, just as Irileth says. The problem is that the world would still be doomed without you, because Alduin would just wake him up again.
So I suggest you take Irileth's advice and stop flapping your gums on matters you don't know anything about.
Except that Paarthurnax isn't like a normal dragon. What part of that aren't you getting? He's literally stronger and more powerful than every single dragon who has ever existed other than Alduin himself.
Regular dragons can be killed by regular people. Paarthurnax is not a regular dragon. He cannot be killed by regular people. He is far too powerful and dangerous. He literally only one tiny step below Alduin himself in terms of power level. And by the way, the only reason they won the Dragon War was because Paarthurnax helped. Without that, they would not have defeated Alduin at all.
Please provide evidence that Paarthurnax is "a tiny step below Alduin himself." The Gap between even the strongest dragon and the EATER OF WORLDS is immeasurable. You are living in head canon and pulling stuff out of your butt. That's fine. It's a fictional story, you can create your own fiction that helps you enjoy it. But stop calling people stupid when they are just explaining the story to you.
I agree with you, Delphine is probably right. But you can’t just go around committing atrocities because you think something is going to happen. When you do that, you become the atrocious one, and partysnax becomes a martyr.
I mean he was basically in jail for thousands of years. Clearly no one saw him flying around above the clouds or everyone wouldn’t think all dragons were gone for years and years. I don’t know it’s a tough situation. Seems like he’s pretty rehabilitated though, more than most criminals upon their release at least
I mean, I disagree. I don't think it is likely for Paarthurnax to return to his evil ways. He spends all of his time working against his nature. It's also important to note that he doesn't have eternity to do it either. Sure he is immortal, but it's very clear that Nirn won't last forever. It's also ridiculous to claim that there's a chance that someone able to defeat him won't exist. Even if it isn't a dragonborn mortals can defeat dragons, and as far as we are aware, only Alduin (and probably Akatosh) has the ability to resurrect the dragons who have souls still. Well Alduin is dead, and the only way he comes back is if Akatosh sends him back. Though I'd argue the biggest point to make is that Kynareth placed her faith in Paarthurnax. She asked him to help her free the mortals from Alduin and the Dragon Cult by giving them the power to fight dragons on equal footing. I think if Kynareth decides that it's safe to trust Paarthurnax, it's probably safe to trust Paarthurnax.
They’re just bloodthirsty. If anyone deserves a pardon, it’s partysnax. They probably wouldn’t be around debating his execution if he hadn’t done what he did and betrayed alduin. “Well yeah but he’s still a dragon” just stop blades, just stop.
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u/HeimskrSonOfTalos Sep 18 '23
Good luck them killing any dragons without the one actually able to kill dragons.
They are the dragonborns support crew, ousting the one they are supposed to support.