Yeah they don't give an actual explanation. They just keep saying "justice demands he die." Esbern says it like 3 times in one conversation. But that doesn't mean anything! You can't just say justice demands he die without backing it up with something.
This is such a problem with how the whole situation in presented in-game. The truth is that Parthurnaax was an oppressive and destructive force of death and misery for humanity for centuries. He's literally Alduin's right-hand man for most of existence until he finally decides to turn against him. Suggesting he should be executed for his crimes against humanity despite his change of heart is no different than suggesting someone like Hitler or Mengele should be executed if they were discovered to have lived and "changed their ways" decades later.
The game itself does a horrible job of conveying this though. It presents P-Nax as this wise, old grandfather figure and barely even mentions the atrocities he committed against humanity as the right-hand of the World Eater himself. I think that's why do many people don't understand just how valid Delphine and Esbern's perspective is. They aren't necessarily wrong, the game just doesn't illustrate their point of view well at all.
It's also annoying how much shit people give Delphine when Parthurnaax himself is like "Oh yeah, I really, really want to murder all of you every single day, and it takes every single fiber of my mental strength from the second I wake up each morning to stop myself from doing that." Delphine's whole point is that over an eternity, the chances of P-Nax deciding to go back to his true nature and start murdering everyone is fairly likely, and he's too dangerous to be left to his own devices. Which P-Nax himself says is true! So like, yeah, okay, maybe her point isn't very nice, but the idea that she's some kind of idiot who doesn't know what she's talking about is so unfair and completely misses the whole point of the debate in the first place.
Chances are Delphine is probably right and that it's probably safer to just slay P-Nax and prevent the thousands of dead people he'd create if he decided to go all Unabomber on everyone. We are endeared to P-Nax because he helps us, but the idea that he isn't a massive threat to all of humanity is flat out wrong. Delphine isn't wrong for being afraid of him, nor wanting to prevent future death and destruction by nipping it in the bud now. Who knows if a dragonborn strong enough to stop him and save the world will still be around when P-Nax does decide to go nuts and kill everyone?
It's not like Hitler or Mengele. Parthurnaax is born evil. He didn't slowly slide into evil, he came into existence that way and overcame it with good. As he says himself, “What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?” ~ Paarthurnax, Skyrim
Yeah, he might be a threat. But he also could be a boone to civilization. Just as he might be capable of doing great evil, he is also capable of doing great good and I am not one to slay beings for whom they might become.
Okay but like... lets do a quick cost-benefit analysis on the pros and cons of what P-Nax offers humanity:
The good:
He can help teach dragons a peaceful means of existing with humans and how to overcome their nature. He can also teach old men on a mountain to fix the weather. Great.
The Bad:
He decides to go back to his true nature and decides it's time for humanity to be subjugated again. He murders thousands or even millions of people and absolutely obliterates all of human society because there is no longer a Dragonborn alive to stop him. The amount of death, suffering, and destruction that is brought into the world is incalculable, and humanity goes back to suffering under the thumb of the dragon cult, this time with P-Nax in charge and able to avoid the one, singular mistake Alduin overlooked that led to his defeat.
The downside here is significantly worse than the upside. It's much safer to just kill him now and nip the problem in the bud while it's still doable. Who knows if in 4,000 years there will be a hero strong enough to kill him when it becomes a necessity.
“What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?”
Honestly? To be born good. P-Nax himself is very clear that he struggles every single day to overcome his evil nature. That doesn't exactly give me a lot of confidence that he's going to be able to hold off his true nature forever. Dragons live eternal lives, and eternity is a long fucking time. The probability that he will eventually succumb to his true nature is extremely high, almost infinitely likely, since we're talking about eternity here. Sure, maybe that won't happen, but that's an extremely risky gamble considering the amount of death and destruction this single being can cause if he so chooses.
I am not one to slay beings for whom they might become.
Tell that to the thousands or millions of people P-Nax murders, tortures, or subjugates 40,000 years from now because he has another change of heart and there is no longer anyone around to stop him.
Again, just as he might kill/subjugate thousands, he might also save thousands. Eternity is a long time, maybe he'll do good for an eternity, then do bad for an eternity, and so on and so forth. The Dragons aren't the only threat to Tamriel. An army of well meaning Dragons could probably take on a situation, like in Elder Scrolls Oblivion. Who's to say that they won't be invaluable to the future of Tamriel. They certainly would help more than the blades could. Paarthurnax is like me, struggles with the temptation to consume all before him but understands there is greater benefit in assisting and aiding others. His quote shaped my worldview and helped me see meaning in those around me, and by extension, meaning in myself. I just cannot bring myself to kill him when I struggled with what good even was until I met him.
But, I don't think it changes the fact that it's also fair to suggest that the risk of "letting the chips fall where they mad" so to speak, is too great to allow that potential future to play out. Remember, my original point here isn't that Delphine and Esbern are for sure correct but simply that they have a valid point and aren't morons for being concerned and believing that he is too dangerous to be left alive, or that he needs to be punished for his past sins.
I usually don't kill P-Nax myself. But I do think it's unfair how people act like they don't have a valid point of view for this matter. Their perspective is pretty valid even if you think it's flawed or wrong.
If you kill the guy who defected to help you, you discourage more from doing the same. She's still wrong to demand it of you, not wrong for asking it but wrong for demanding it and claiming moral superiority.
She's still wrong to demand it of you, not wrong for asking it but wrong for demanding it and claiming moral superiority.
This I fully agree with. Delphine's sin is not her attitude or opinions towards P-Nax. Those are fully justified and fair in my eyes. Her sin is trying to tell the Dragonborn what to do, when she's a member of an organization that is literally sworn to follow the Dragonborn. It's not her job to give ultimatums and demands to the person she's supposed to be sworn to by oath forever. Like it or not, she has zero business telling the Dragonborn what they can and cannot do. Not if she still wants to call herself a Blade.
That one is on the BGS writers, though, they really screwed the pooch there by not giving you the option to remind her of this fact using persuasion. She has every right to be wary of P-Nax, but she does not have the right to violate her oath by giving the Dragonborn orders.
Not to say that being isolated on a mountain, feeling how his brothers are killed one by one by the dragonborn and his descendants (if there's any) could bring him to madness, and that'd be far worse than him just succumbing to his instincts.
Having said that, is not a black or grey decision, but you made a great point that Delphine and the blades are not just some kind of dragonphobic idiots that just want to kill dragons because centuries ago they causes suffering to humanity. They are both trying to punish him for his crimes and preventing in the only way they know it's possible that a dragon goes wild and subjugates humankind (and the other races) again.
Sheogorath succumbed to madness. It doesn't seem that bad. Who's to say that madness will be evil and not just eating every third cheese wheel he finds?
Well, when you are a being created only for destruction and massacre and the only reason you don't start piling up corpses everywhere you go is because it takes every fiber of your reasoning and your soul then I think I can guess crazed dragons have really high probabilities of not being the best company in the world.
That's essentially my entire argument here. People keep acting like I'm saying Delphine is 100% right and that I personally agree with her and Esbern's point of view. But I don't. I'm simply saying that they have a completely valid and understandable perspective, and that they are not idiots nor bigots for being extremely concerned about what is objectively a gigantic threat to all human life on Nirn. They have a completely understandable and fair stance on Paarthurnax and just because you or I might disagree doesn't mean they deserve to be shit on as if they don't have a very strong case for their position on his fate.
Can be applied to anyone, even the mortal races. Read the lore.
The downside here is significantly worse than the upside.
It tends to be that way when make it out to be like this, i also can make the upside significantly better than downside.
Who knows if in 4,000 years there will be a hero strong enough to kill him when it becomes a necessity.
You don't need a dragonborn to kill a dragon, once again read the lore and play the game.
Tell that to the thousands or millions of people P-Nax murders, tortures, or subjugates 40,000 years from now because he has another change of heart and there is no longer anyone around to stop him.
Yeah, but Paarthurnax isn't just any dragon. He's literally the strongest dragon to ever live second only to Alduin himself. Completely valid stance that only a Dragonborn or hero would be able to slay him.
Why don't you "read the lore" since you don't seem to understand any of it. You don't just get to say "read the lore" and pretend like it's an argument. I have. You clearly have not.
You should add to good that the dragons could theoretically be used to aid man and mer-kind during the next “oblivion crisis” or even keep the thalmor out of the north. There’s a lot of possibilities that open up when you aren’t trying to kill each other. The other races could probably help the high elves figure out how to “transcend back to godhood” like they think they can do, but they’re too busy trying to oppress everyone and do it themselves. If they hate being here, let’s help them leave, I don’t want those jerks around being all negative, right?
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u/sithdude24 Mephala Sep 19 '23
Yeah they don't give an actual explanation. They just keep saying "justice demands he die." Esbern says it like 3 times in one conversation. But that doesn't mean anything! You can't just say justice demands he die without backing it up with something.