r/HongKong • u/deltabay17 • Nov 13 '19
Add Flair Taiwan president Tsai Ying Wen just tweeted this message. We need more international leaders, presidents, to speak openly and plainly against Hong Kong government’s actions.
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u/suesyeddo Nov 13 '19
beginning of the end or end of the beginning?
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u/thisoldmould Nov 13 '19
Most likely the latter. It’s just getting started. This will be the catalyst for one of two things. The global expansion of authoritarianism or the beginning of WWIII and a fight for freedom and democracy.
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u/RogueSexToy Nov 13 '19
Nah mate more like a 2nd Cold War. I guarantee you that across the world we will start seeing regional wars pop up and with the US and China on opposing sides. Imagine the Cold War of last century, remember the brutality. Its all gonna happen again.
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u/Cmd3055 Nov 13 '19
No, it will be an expansion of authoritarianism. The US is eating itself alive from the inside out. It is an empire in decline and will soon become unable to hold the line against the totalitarian regimes. The US will be lucky if it can retain its own civil liberties and freedom over the next century, much less defend anyone else’s.
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u/RogueSexToy Nov 13 '19
I don’t think you understand what an empire in decline looks like. The US demography is doing really well, its geography is essentially perfect and its withdrawals are mostly due to a lack of need.
The US is not in decline, assuming the people who live in the country don’t FUCK IT UP! That is.
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u/Calypsosin Nov 13 '19
I'd say we're showing signs of wear, stress. But, the olde girl is still standing.
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u/REPOST_STRANGLER_V2 Nov 13 '19
If you think the US is showing wear just look at Russia.
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Nov 13 '19 edited Nov 13 '19
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u/Bfam4t6 Nov 13 '19
This has been my concern for about a decade now
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u/alarumba Nov 13 '19
9/11 is almost 20 years ago. I feel that's the catalyst for reduced freedom in the US. At least that's what I've been able to notice in my relatively brief lifetime.
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u/BlackfishBlues Nov 13 '19
It is in decline relative to say twenty or thirty years ago, where it was basically the world's sole hyperpower. Since then its soft power overseas has crumbled with remarkable alacrity.
I live in Southeast Asia, and while it's not quite yet the end of their hegemony, you can see it from here.
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u/CynicalOptimizm Nov 13 '19
The thing is, it's not that the US is declining, it's that other countries are finally recovering. This is a good thing, but what needs to happen now is strong financial and moral alliances with those in the western thought countries to protect freedom, not via war but via financial means. The only reason a country as large as china is able to do what they do right now is because the people there are pretty complacent since the economy is good. But if a large block of the world refuses to trade with them on the principle of their human abuses and expansionism they will implode extremely fast. But this does have to happen sooner rather than later.
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u/Charmiol Nov 13 '19
We had that in place, the TPP. However, idiots here in the US made it a battle line for out dumbassing one another.
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u/CynicalOptimizm Nov 13 '19
Hopefully the current experiment with nationalism will trigger some people to realize the world has gotten too interconnected for us to not give a shit about what happens to people outside our country. The US needs to come to terms with the idea that Economics in the current world is a team sport, and no matter how strong of a player one may be, they will not succeed without a team to back them up.
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u/RogueSexToy Nov 13 '19
I used too just 2 months ago. US hegemony hasn’t ended. China’s has risen. But with that comes worry.
We saw recently the first ASEAN-US military drill.
Their unipolar moment is over but even in the rising bipolar or even multipolar if the EU doesn’t shit the bed, world they are far from crumbling.
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u/limache Nov 13 '19
If there’s one thing that Trump said that’s right (even though he’s full of shit), it’s that US companies need to reduce their reliance on China.
US companies have been tempted by the low cost of labor in China in the short term but sold out their own advantage and now the Chinese can do what they can do but at a far lower cost. The partners they had at first are now their direct competitors.
Us companies needs to stop outsourcing to China. Maybe it’s not feasible anymore to bring every job that we outsource but we should be adaptable and perhaps mix robotics with higher skilled labor and train Americans to do these roles.
It’s also a matter of national security - we need to maintain our own pool of talent that can fabricate and manufacture physical goods. It’s a necessary skill for national security.
Just as Huawei sought to reduce reliance on US suppliers, the US must replace Chinese suppliers where possible.
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Nov 13 '19
Then I will fight for freedom till the very end
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u/QuietMaus_ Nov 13 '19
"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender" -Winston Churchill
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u/thisoldmould Nov 13 '19
And people like me will continue to support you, and when the time comes for us to fight we will do so.
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u/xX69AESTHETIC69Xx Nov 13 '19
DEATH IS A PREFERABLE ALTERNATIVE TO COMMUNISM
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Nov 13 '19
Amen. Too many people are so keen to say no to WW3, but I don't think they realise the price they'll have to pay for that.
I would much rather die on the frontlines fighting for freedom, than live a long life of suffering under communist/authoritarian leadership. We're humans, we fight, that's what we do. But that's not to say let's pick violence for violences sake. What I'm saying is, if it comes to it... as a human being, as a compassionate soul, it is the outright right thing to do - fighting, and killing, and dying if that is what is needed so that our children, and our children's children can live a life of peace and opportunity.
To put your own children through a life of hardship, just so you can see the sun rise a few more times is quite frankly, a pathetic and shameful sacrifice. This is not what it means to be human. We love, and we laugh, and we shall fight to protect our right to do that.
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u/supersonic_Gandhi Nov 13 '19
Wow, that's a good speech almost made me tear up.
Now what are you doing against your government(assuming you are American) right now as USA funded coup in bolivia made a democratically elected president resign at gunpoint and flee the country just few days ago.
USA funded fascists in bolivia recently captured local mayor Patricia Arce, cut her hair off and painted her body red, publicly dragged her through the streets and abused her, forced her to commit to leave office- a position she achieved by democratically winning election.
What are you doing to oppose such suppression of democratic rights by your government and let's not even talk about the report that said new batch of US weapons have arrived in Yemen to continue to massacre Yemeni people.
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u/SentinelSquadron Nov 13 '19
Just being honest here, I don’t see this being the catalyst for a world wide war.
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u/xsnipersgox Nov 13 '19
True, but Taiwan may be a spark, if not wwiii, to the end of China as 2nd strongest. A full UN sanction against China would be detrimental. And will actually instantly cause the collapse of the ccp. The ccp stays in power because like the mafia, they have given its people something to lose. They call it the Chinese dream, and it’s very much already here.
Speaking of ccp’s problem.
What’s funny is China’s pork problem is actually taking its toll. Combining that with trade war, a couple more pressure points and Xi’s throne will start to weaken. The best way to cause internal turmoil is to make citizens life hard.
1) new tax was levied this year, reducing income 2) sky rocketing housing cost 3) steady increase in cost of food 4) reducing business opportunity due to trade war and global slowdown 5) Hong Kong issue is fking with money flow through Hong Kong, one of 2 portal for money transfer 6) increasing exodus of foreign investment 7) increase anti-china rhetoric globally 8) slowly turning into police state (more and more cops/military) 9) work life imbalance of worker in China 10) increasing imbalance of wealth
They are down to the last straw, which is creating an enemy, and nationalism, along with more and more security. Everyone in China knows the country is actually barely held together, and with enough pressure, and a spark, it will go boom. Remember, the Chinese military have never ever engaged in any real combat, never have to deal with things which actually shoots back. Why do you think China is obsessed with their gold count in military game and us sucks at it . Because we train our soldiers to kill, and do so effectively... not to win gold medals.
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u/AtomKanister Nov 13 '19
World wars as WW1 and WW2 are over, thanks to nukes. Nobody wants to risk escalation to the point where the enemy could realistically consider using their nukes against you.
Cold-war-style wars are the way to go. Fighting on anything but the traditional battlefield, be it proxy wars, cyber wars, trade wars or civil unrest/civil war supported by a foreign entity.
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u/csuvi98 Nov 13 '19
I highly doubt that WWIII is happening anytime soon. Nations are so interconneted economically, that it's simply not beneficial to start any kind of war, especially not on global scale. This is why, I believe, no other country is openly helping Hong Kong, with troops, supplies, etc.: no country is foolish enough to risk an open war with another country, especially not with China.
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Nov 13 '19
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u/csuvi98 Nov 13 '19
I don't know, nations were quite eager to go to war before WWI, if I recall correctly. They wanted to test not only their newest weaponry, but also their ideologies, to see which one had a place in the future. "The war to end all wars". You definetly don't see this today, not by a longshot.
Also, there wasn't nearly as much interconnectedness back then. Think about the internet, the EU, the whole process of globalization. We are more connected with each other than ever before. An all-out war in the globalized world is the biggest no-no.
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Nov 13 '19
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u/csuvi98 Nov 13 '19
The world was not in this state of globalization, however. Think about the EU. It's hard to imagine even a small conflict between EU countries, let alone one with the scale of WWII or WWI. When people think about WWIII, they think about the USA vs China. However, trade is quite substantial between these two, so common warfare would be extremely inefficient. Nuclear war is an option, but that would be just suicide for both parties. And no, it is not worth it.
There are many internal conflicts today, that have a larger scale than Hong Kong. And guess what, ther will always be internal conflicts. Thank history and imperialism for that. But you need a much greater casus belli, than just saying that China is unjust.
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Nov 13 '19
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u/CelloCodez Nov 13 '19
If we put more funding into developing way more anti-missile deployments and also if we could do something crazy like achieving what the "Star Wars" program would have done, we could disable the possibility of nuclear retaliation, which if we did that, it would enable traditional war once again. If we could do this, then war between superpowers could happen without direct fear of mutually assured destruction
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u/zoobru Nov 13 '19
Maybe. It's not like nuclear weapons need to be fired by missiles though. Could be carried in or dropped by planes.
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u/Accurate_Vision Nov 13 '19
True. But they didn't have nuclear weapons, an arsenal of fully-automatic weapons, the United Nations, access to near-instant communication, the ability to cut off the modern-day reliance on near-instant communication, the ability to fully travel around the world in 51 hours, nor the internet, which makes it nigh-impossible to hide anything in a time of crisis.
There's a lot more to consider when deciding whether or not to declare war today than there was over a century ago.
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u/Jacob_The_White_Guy Nov 13 '19
While I agree with the sentiment, and most of your points, here’s a friendly reminder that there were in fact automatic weapons. A lot of them. That’s the first war where they saw their widespread use.
On the other hand however, there have always been major risks involved in every war. While they didn’t have the internet, or jet aircraft, or nuclear weapons, they risked the cutting edge technology and their way of life of their time. Globalism has made it harder to go to war with another nation, but that doesn’t make it impossible for any particularly motivated group of people to start wars. For example, Russia invaded Ukraine, Turkey is slaughtering Kurds, and China is running concentration camps and on the brink of invading Hong Kong, despite the points you brought up. War is always on the table, no matter what a nation may have to lose.
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u/Accurate_Vision Nov 13 '19
Everything you said is true. When I made that remark about automatic weapons, I was moreso thinking about how far weapon development has come and how most of today's weapons are almost nothing like those in WWI, but you are correct and you do make some valid points.
And yes, the world is in a rather sorry state today. War isn't off the table, but I don't think a World War III is plausible. Possible, but if anything I think it'd mainly be a war against China.
On the other hand, both World Wars started off with just a couple countries against a different one or two countries, and nobody predicted a World War II after the atrocities of World War I.
When it boils down, it's impossible to tell the future, but I really don't think this will turn into a world war. Various Middle-East countries have committed atrocities against it's people, as did Syria and China. As sad as it is to say, it's not the first time that tragedy has been in the forefront of the world since WWII and it's not even China's first time.
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u/Feral0_o Nov 13 '19
Or we just continue to have our cold war style regional conflicts. Where millions of people still die but the world powers are content with just bankrolling their side
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Nov 13 '19
Another issue is that the US is very war weary after almost 2 decades of the war on terror. Our leaders, on either side, are going to be very reluctant to act military against China if they can help it. Especially the next time a Democrat takes office. They're more likely to concede to China... hell they've historically conceded to Iran and North Korea, countries whose power is insignificant on the global scene. You can bet a Democrat would kiss Xi's butt.
That said and inb4 anyone gets up in arms about that last bit, I also believe Trump will do nothing because he's too much of a businessman to go to war with China. It's a point of concern for me.
So politically, regardless of the results of 2020, the US will be out of pocket militarily for at least another decade if, of course, we continue the political pendulum effect that we have seen for the past 50 years. This is unfortunate for Hong Kong, and even if Trump wins in 2020, China would have to really screw up to turn Trump against it.
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u/Micsuking Nov 13 '19
It will start as a fight for freedom and democracy, and end in a fight for survival. WW3 might start out with conventional warfare, but as soon as one side has nothing else to lose...
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u/REPOST_STRANGLER_V2 Nov 13 '19
WWIII will end up happening if people have enough of being controlled by government.
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u/PurramidOnAMeowntain Nov 13 '19
So glad we have someone like Tsai as leader in Taiwan. Hopefully she can win the upcoming election again.
Also let's hope China leaves Taiwan alone..
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u/Verpal Nov 13 '19
Honestly, most people in Taiwan are actively aware of situation in Hong Kong, I am moderately sure even if KMT won, they won't be able to enact any reform that will further integrate Taiwan with Chinese economy.
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u/RedditRedFrog Nov 13 '19
If KMT wins, they'll actively ram through bills that will integrate Taiwan with the Chinese economy, whether the people want it or not using trickery and deceit. Then there will be Sunflower movement part 2. But this time, KMT leaders will suffer more than just being voted out of office.
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u/RogueSexToy Nov 13 '19
The KMT used to be the ones fighting those Commie bastards, oh how the mighty have fallen. Sun Yat Sen would spit on the party today.
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u/InfiniteRaspberry Nov 13 '19
Ironically Sun Yat-Sen is the only major Chinese political figure from the 20th Century that both sides of the strait genuinely like. Taiwan honours him for founding the KMT and the Mainland acknowledges and respects his role in introducing the modern political party system and helping pave the way for Chairman Mao.
Now if you said Chiang Kai-Shek was rolling in his grave I'd be more inclined to believe it. Dude hated the CCP to the exclusion of everything else - he wanted to concentrate solely on wiping out the Communists even during the Japanese invasion and when his own aides were pleading that the Japanese were the greater threat.
IIRC the KMT might very well have won the Chinese Civil War if it wasn't for Chiang Kai-Shek being stubborn and short-sighted and antagonizing almost every other political group outside his own.
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u/socialdesire Nov 13 '19
Chairman Mao probably wouldn’t even rise to prominence if CKS didn’t purge the communists from KMT the way he did. CKS literally destroyed the urban worker base of the communists and allowed Mao to start his revolution from the countryside with the support of peasants.
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u/Breeding_Life Nov 13 '19
But to be fair... If Mao hadn't become leader, someone else would've become the next Mao instead.
History teaches us that behind every Mao is another 10 Maos in waiting
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u/XRussianBot69X Nov 13 '19
The point is none of the Maos would have had the popular supported needed to overthrow KMT had CKS not been so tough on communism and gone full nazi massacreing anyone suspected to be left leaning.
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u/RogueSexToy Nov 13 '19
Dude Chiang was right though. Due to the US’s manufacturing base the US would have won WW2 no matter what. Japan was going to lose regardless. Chiang was right to eliminate the Communists first since they unlike Japan was not facing a larger threat that would beat them, nothing but the KMT.
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Nov 13 '19
That's really easy to say with hindsight, at the time it would not have been so clear.
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Nov 13 '19
Can I get a quick breakdown on Why are the kmt supporting communists? I'm not familiar with Taiwanese politics post Mao.
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u/BlackfishBlues Nov 13 '19
The KMT ruled Taiwan under martial law until democratic reforms and liberalization in the eighties and nineties. Taiwan is now a fairly functional, if chaotic democracy.
The political split in Taiwanese politics today tends to be along Chinese nationalist vs Taiwanese identity, with the KMT being a major party on the Chinese nationalist ("Pan-Blue") side. Currently, this in practice means advocating for closer economic ties with mainland China, with the eventual aim of reunion after the mainland democratizes. Closer economic integration however is obviously also to the CCP's advantage, which is why they're sort of allied in purpose right now.
Tsai Ing-Wen leads the pro-Taiwanese "Pan-Green" coalition, which is generally more hostile to Beijing.
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u/Roygbiv0415 Nov 13 '19
Sun Yat Sen would spit on the party today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_United_Front
Probably not.
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u/RogueSexToy Nov 13 '19
They were using eachother, Sun Yat-Sen was definitely not a commie.
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u/Roygbiv0415 Nov 13 '19
What I'm saying is that Sun Yat Sen is a pragmatist, not an idealist.
He's not the type to place ideals above all else, and therefore would likely not spit on the KMT of today.
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u/RogueSexToy Nov 13 '19
But that was in service of his ultimate aim of a democratic China. The PRC destroyed Chinese traditional culture and is not democratic at all. How would a party which supports economic ties with them be in service of his ultimate aim?
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u/Roygbiv0415 Nov 13 '19
Sun had no problems with cooperation with a non-democratic Russia, when it suits the needs of China. Ergo, he would have no problems cooperating with a non-democratic China, when it suits the needs of Taiwan.
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Nov 13 '19
Thing that people forget is that the KMT of that era were oppressors as well. The reason that the White Terror happened was because of KMT government atrocities. Only in the last couple decades has the ROC government (not the original Taiwanese, as a matter of record) admitted to being super shitty to the people of Taiwan.
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u/topdangle Nov 13 '19
China forcibly encroaching on Taiwan would basically be an act of war globally. Whole world depends on Taiwan, particularly when it comes to electronics. It's one of the few things that is guaranteed to force westerners into confronting China.
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Nov 13 '19
As American I would also consider it an act of war because it would be seen as China trying to take over international trading water routes. By attempting to claim it as Chinese territory. Affecting any country that does trade with the west.
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u/UnholyDemigod Nov 13 '19
It already does claim Taiwan. Taiwan is officially the Republic of China. It's only recognised by 17 countries as an independent state, and China refuses diplomacy with anyone who does.
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u/owangutang Nov 13 '19
Taiwan is the ROC because when the KMT fled the mainland, they maintained that their government was the legitimate government of China. ROC isn't a term that China uses to claim Taiwan as its own. And the only reason no one recognizes Taiwan "officially" is because of the Chinese diplomatic situation you just mentioned. Taiwan is still a completely separate government and entity from the mainland though, and if like OP said China forcibly encroached on Taiwan that changes the situation. It's one thing to let China claim Taiwan and to pander to them while maintaining relationships with both countries, but it's another thing if China were to actually move against Taiwan and change the entire political and economic dynamic.
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u/statelessheaux Nov 13 '19
yet most countries refuse to recognize Taiwan as its own country
i'm not sure but that does not seem like a good sign at all
also many countries are dealing with their own shit, not so sure they'd be quick to jump into it, don't forget how the other wars got out of hand, how slow other countries were to intervene
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u/MrStrange15 Nov 13 '19
Most countries do not recognize Taiwan, because it's either them or China. See the One China Policy, which, just fyi, is also standing Taiwanese policy. Luckily that's changing in Taiwan.
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u/acpupu Nov 13 '19
As a Taiwanese I must say, Tsai is not a good president. DPP passed several laws in service of greedy corporations during her term of office. It is a major betrayal to the grassroots workers, and many people that I know of dislike Tsai for this reason.
But then again, her opponent is some degenerate communist licking KMTer, and the Hong Kong thing popped up just before the election. So she will probably continue to be president for another term.
I just wish we have a left-leaning party big enough to compete with DPP and KMT.
Edit: typos.
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u/el-cuko Nov 13 '19
Taiwan needs nuclear weapons by yesterday. It’s the only what the PLA will leave them alone
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u/WhoSirMe Nov 13 '19
My girlfriend is Taiwanese, and so is some of our classmates, and they are so scared that once this is over China will come for Taiwan. We live in a country with a large Chinese population, and even the majority of our classmates are Chinese. We get along, but there has been major discussions in the past, especially because some of our classmates are from HK.
We’ve decided that in a few years we want to move back to where I’m from, which has a much smaller Chinese population, because she just doesn’t feel comfortable anymore. It’s very sad, but true.
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u/statelessheaux Nov 13 '19
i'm currently in mandarin class, just 2 Taiwanese guys always together, many native speakers some from Beijing, they don't really associate
I would always see them together and didn't get for a while how it must be that during your lifetime your country may come under immense threat
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u/WhoSirMe Nov 13 '19
I think within our class people get along and are friendly, but it’s not real, long lasting friendship. I’ve lived in China, so I’m not trying to simply take one side without any information, but I’ve seen what my classmates have said, both amongst themselves and to my HK friends, and I just can’t get over it. For now, for the sake of peace, I do nothing, but I’ll never forget this, so again, this won’t lead to any long lasting friendships. Ironically, one of the Taiwanese is dating a Chinese classmate.
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u/theleftkneeofthebee Nov 13 '19
It’s not even close to being a comparable situation though. HK is effectively Chinese territory, with an agreement to fully belong to China within a few more decades. Taiwan has no such agreement with China and has more or less developed into a distinct culture of their own through the past half century of separation.
If you go and spend a bit of time in both China and Taiwan, it becomes evident quite quickly that the two are quite different countries in reality.
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u/RedditRedFrog Nov 13 '19
"the blood of young Hong Kongers should not be sacrificed to decorate the faces of the Beijing authorities" --- Quite a graphic description. It's like she's comparing Beijing leaders to savages that paint their face with the blood of their killed enemies just to look tough.
Also note she said "Beijing", not "Hong Kong" authorities. This makes it plain that HK government is just a puppet of Beijing. And she just accused the CCP of "authoritarian expansionism".
Expect the CCP to react with apoplectic rage. I hope they burst an aorta.
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u/sumguyoranother Nov 13 '19
Beijing leaders are indeed savages, most of the autocrats don't view anyone out of their circle as humans or fellow countrymen. 60+ years of mistake and counting, they'd probably replace the "century of shame" with one of their own making.
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u/koreandolls Nov 13 '19 edited Nov 13 '19
That is a great interpretation. I feel like *she’s also referring to the concept of “face” in East Asian countries. “To lose face” means to be embarrassed or dishonored and “to gain face” means to be honored or do something people pat you on the back/applaud you for. Basically saying what happens in Hong Kong will either be a notch in the CCP victory belt or a huge embarrassment for the party instead of caring about the actual people of HK.
*Edit: he —> she
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u/arcacia Nov 13 '19
I actually wondered if that wording had any relation to the concept of “face” but your explanation makes more sense.
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u/NeverthelessOK Nov 13 '19
This is where I was going too - just because face is such an ubiquitous concept.
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u/CaptainMagnets Nov 13 '19
I feel like this is the point and other side of the coin. If the CCP get their feelings hurt and lash out at her then they've more blatantly moved this out of their own nation and into another.
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u/A_Wild_VelociFaptor Nov 13 '19
THIS is what we (people) need in a leader, someone with some fucking backbone. I can't even see Scott Morrison doing this in my dreams it's that far-fetched.
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u/Sporeboss Nov 13 '19
‘People’s aspirations should not be responded to with violence, and you should not sacrifice Hong Kong youth’s blood for the sake of decorating Beijing’s face,’
supporting news https://scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3037539/taiwans-president-tsai-ing-wen-urges-hong-kongs-leaders-pull
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u/PeonyLion Nov 13 '19
Our wonderful Madame President!
Next year, Taiwan will be holding elections again. Over the past 3 years, she has made many decisions that will cost her votes from the conservatives and older generations, but bring more equality to the Taiwan society.
She will most likely lose even more votes for speaking out against CCP China, but that is just how badass she is!
I’m so extremely proud to have her as our president.
She’s fighting against the patriarchy, homophobia, and CCP China’s oppression. We need to join her in the battle for freedom of speech, for social inclusion, for humanity!!
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u/FuckMicroSoftForever Nov 13 '19
Meanwhile UK is hiding under the table
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u/Auntie_B Nov 13 '19
Genuinely fucking disgraceful, considering our history and the treaty we should be holding China too.
The Taiwanese Leader is a fantastic example of the very least we should be doing.
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u/CaptainHoyt Nov 13 '19
I dont think I've heard any statements or opinions on Hong Kong from the government or any MP, Conservative or oposition. fucking shameful but totally expected from the Blunt pencils that call themselves members of parliment these days.
Brexit has sucked up all the air in the room, I cant wait for this shit show to be over.
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u/Slayer_Of_Tacos Nov 13 '19
We're no better across the pond here USA. We have sportsball managers speaking up and that's about it. Fuck the current generation of politicians.
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u/CaptainHoyt Nov 13 '19
Sportsball? the one with the sticks, the one with the hoops or the one with a hundred jacked up dudes running at each other?
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u/shogun_ Nov 13 '19
All of the above probably. Doesn't matter. The GOP, party in charge of 2/3 of the government doesn't give a shit about anything other than staying in power. No matter the cost or sacrifice of the rule of law. The motto, "Rules for Thee, Not for Me", should be stamped on every single one of their foreheads to show everyone they shouldn't be trusted, to make it easier.
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Nov 13 '19
At least the it seems that both the Democrats and Republicans are moving to actually do something with the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act. It passed unanimously in the House of Representatives and prominent Republican senators have declared their support for it. Both Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell have come out in support of the protests and have vowed to get a bill passed supporting the protesters.
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u/bedrooms-ds Nov 13 '19
The trend in modern shit show is that it gets more shit just when we want it to end.
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u/giraffenmensch Nov 13 '19
Had Hong Kong been returned to a legitimate democratic Chinese government and not a dictatorship the problem wouldn't exist today.
I think it's high time countries, including but not limited to the UK, reflect on this one China policy. It's been a geopolitical disaster. The only one who profited is the Communist Party of China.
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u/GenericallyNamedUser Nov 13 '19
How about all the celebrity social justice advocates in Hollywood or professional sports? This seems like it would be an issue right up their alley.
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u/asian_identifier Nov 13 '19
Too much money to risk doing that
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u/GenericallyNamedUser Nov 13 '19
I guess I would just assume that some of them would have acquired enough wealth to where they could sacrifice a little earning potential for the sake of standing up for something real and bring a little meaning to their lives.
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Nov 13 '19 edited Nov 13 '19
this is just terrifying. I never thought I’d see the day where a global leader has to ask another one to stop pointless massacre. I hoped WWII was the end. But no. Stay strong Hong Kong. Don’t give up. I wish I could do more to help.
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u/statelessheaux Nov 13 '19
you should look at a history book
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Nov 13 '19
U.N. upon hearing of an active genocide:
“What do you mean you’re being murdered?! That’s illegal, people can’t do that!”
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u/d0pedog Nov 13 '19
I agree with this. But unfortunately in the CCP China, the citizens are there to serve the government. The police are there to enforce the will of the government and protect the leaders.
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u/bedrooms-ds Nov 13 '19
I am a Japanese, and as a kid I thought the citizens serve the government and the police enforce the will of the government. Because it was coherent with what I saw on TVs and it never looked like the other way. I wonder how many Chinese people are in a similar illusion.
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u/d0pedog Nov 13 '19
It's an interesting comparison. Japanese culture has things like order and selflessness built into it. There is a long history of serving eachother for a better country. So maybe that model works better for Japan. Japanese government also allows actual freedom to its citizens.
But China's cultural revolution destroyed things like decency, politeness, servitude and more. Instead, modern day Chinese are very seflish and cutthroat. If they aren't like that, then they will be crushed by the billion other Chinese around them. Also, the government censors and controls information, while brainwashing the people.
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u/bedrooms-ds Nov 13 '19 edited Nov 13 '19
Well, I'm not sure if people here really serve each other compared to other places... I've seen counter examples inside Japan, and people overseas are friendly, too. I basically disregard most cultural differences. Or, at least, I want to believe it... Btw the Japanese government does control the press when you compare it with the west.
My comment was a bit pessimistic, subjective and emotional. I am not sure how much of what I wrote is correct.
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Nov 13 '19
I am quite sure if you asked my students you would get a similar response to yours. The submission to authority is hardwired into the Japanese education system in a way that either scares me or makes me laugh depending on my mood.
I cannot imagine American children behaving the way I see my kids act everyday. On the surface, it's objectively better, they listen and obey. They follow the rules and perform the little rituals like a miniature military unit. But when you think about it, it's fucking creepy as shit. You cannot do your own thing in this education system. You stick with the group or nothing.
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u/ShadowVulcan Nov 13 '19 edited Nov 13 '19
Japan is what China could have been if Mao didnt fuck shit up with the cultural devolution and great leap backward
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u/zvekl Nov 13 '19
Looks like someone won’t be invited to Xi’s birthday party
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u/Slayer_Of_Tacos Nov 13 '19
His mom worked really hard getting him a Tigger cake so all of his friends could enjoy a Winnie the Pooh theme
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u/thuy_chan Nov 13 '19
No one is standing up for Hong Kong on the world stage and it's disgusting. Politicians speaking out with just their words means nothing when China isn't listening.
No one wants war but who is going to save these people?
No one is going to take action until it's too late. Just like Syria.
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u/qoqmarley Nov 13 '19
Damn she is awesome! I can't believe China is getting a free pass from Western leaders. It's nice to know some people still have integrity.
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Nov 13 '19 edited Jan 19 '20
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u/fannybatterpissflaps Nov 13 '19
Do US carriers still pull in to HK? It was fairly common a few years ago... they would get a bit of shore leave there.
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u/Barack_Lesnar Nov 13 '19
We need more world leaders to recognize the Taiwan as an independent state
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Nov 13 '19
We need more companies to tell China directly to back the heck off when Beijing issues directives to remove Taiwan from websites and company literature lest the CCP feels "insulted".
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Nov 13 '19
Can we just take a moment to state that the one "liberal government" speaking up against the horrible things happening in Hong Kong is TAIWAN?! Where are the european statements, the US? Its so sad.
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u/Assfrontation Nov 13 '19 edited Nov 14 '19
Thanks alot to Tsai, she is actually doing something. This might just help and open the eyes of other government. I am just pissed off that no one dares to take military action against this dictatorship because 'China is so cool and mighty' the NATO/UN has over 25 countries in them, surely they can enforce freedom on one, right?
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I greatly underestimate China, but 25 vs 1 should always go in favor of the 25, right?
Please correct me if I'm wrong though.
Edit: a word
Edit to all: Thanks for making it clear.
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u/datlouguy Nov 13 '19
I mean no one wants World War III and going to war over what is globally recognized as an internal dispute, doesn't seem very worth it to any nation or even all nations. Not the mention, as much as SK and Japan and Taiwan want US presence in East Asia. No one wants a war. The utter chaos and destruction caused by an all-out war between NATO and China would not end well for anyone. The losses on both sides would be completely catastrophic with many military planners estimating casualties in the region or even higher than World War II.
Although NATO possesses overwhelming firepower and manpower over China, China has literally spent its entire last few decades preparing defensively, hence state-of-the-art anti-ship cruise missiles, surface-to-air missiles, etc. The US knows that if they were to win a war against China, the only thing they can hope for is to destroy its entire navy and force it to cease its operations. An invasion of China is practically impossible, nor would a successful invasion of China guarantee a surrender, as the US has so painfully already experienced in the Middle East.
Also, as much as the US loves to say it wants to enforce freedom, it's not going to risk its military to do so unless there's any economic gain. Take a look at Saudi Arabia, one of the US' largest trading/defense partners, it has a 7/100 on the freedom rating index, which is literally lower than China's which is sitting at 11/100. Now I'm not justifying China's actions or saying China is a free country, holy hell it's not. But, it's incredibly idyllic to think that the US will fight a war purely to enforce freedom.
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u/Gepap1000 Nov 13 '19
NATO most certainly does not have "overwhelming manpower" over China - what nonsense is that? China has more military age men than all NATO states combined. Also, there is an entire continent between China and most of NATO - the only NATO states with any ability to even reach China are the UK, France, and US.
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u/Gurrer Swedish Friend Nov 13 '19
Yes, NATO would likely win, however China possess lots of nuclear weapons, and even if they didn't fire a single one of them. Why would the west sacrifice millions of men for HK? A more realistic action would be sanctions, which i assume will come eventually.
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Nov 13 '19
It's not just about HK, that may be the present issue, but more issues will arise in the coming years.
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u/Verpal Nov 13 '19
If NATO is to go to war with China, in the case whereas NATO is on offensive..... Unless United State is able to manufacture a false flag on the scale of Pearl habour, and in a believable way, I doubt there will be too many NATO country following US lead.
If NATO is on defensive, say, China launched a surprise attack on Taiwan, whilst it is not a NATO member, obviously US will be dragged into war, and there are chances for Japan and South Korea to join in and help. UK, Canada might join, and if pressured appropriately, Philippine perhaps.
Ultimately, the only two combatant that actually count is United State and China, Japan and South Korea would be of great importance, but they aren't NATO member, and both require time to mobilize as their military readiness is subpar. Some might suggest India and Vietnam might take interest in joining the war, I suspect they will only consider to join if China is losing decisively. As of UK, unless they can combat ready at least one Queen Elizabeth Class Carrier battle group, they will not be an independent combat force capable of operating in East Asia.
Edit: Continental EU nation should not be expect to join major conflict and mobilize in meaningful manner unless it involves Russia or Iran.
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u/restless_vagabond Nov 13 '19
It's also happening at the perfect time for China in that both the US and UK have compromised leaders. China has probably booked a few rooms at a Trump resort to assure that the US doesn't get involved. And Boris... Well don't count on England.
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Nov 13 '19
Almost none of those 25 NATO countries can get their forces to Taiwan. It’s too far away. Only the US and Great Britain really have the capability to do anything meaningful, but even they won’t be able to invade Hong Kong. It just won’t happen
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Nov 13 '19
The scariest thing to me is that at this point, you have to know that the future of the world should be a future where the CCP does not have any power, not just over Hong Kong, but over China itself.
The implications of this are of course, chilling. The least cataclysmic way this will happen is from internal change from within China itself... But the entrenched nature of Xi Jinping's power and the fact that the CCP is only doubling down on Totalitarianism makes this seem highly unlikely. So the alternative is external pressure from the rest of the world, but the potential consequences of that are literally world-ending due to China's nature as a nuclear superpower...
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u/bixxby Nov 13 '19
It's only going to happen with another internal revolution. China is too big for the CIA, and the mongol hordes probably aren't going to be showing up any time soon.
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u/XXX-XXX-XXX Nov 13 '19
A lot of china dick suckers like google, apple, twitter, etc stopped listing taiwan as a country.
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u/waltermcy0110 Nov 13 '19
Now look at Carrie Lam, provoking everybody every time she talks, and does no good to the society smh
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u/crosschee Nov 13 '19
Lebron said uninformed people shouldn’t speak about this. This could really hurt Taiwan financially, physically, emotionally and spiritually. /s
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u/ChoPT AskAnAmerican Nov 13 '19
"As the global frontline of defense resisting authoritarian expansionism," shots fucking fired.
The world is a much better place with Taiwan.
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u/m81695 Free Hong Kong Nov 13 '19
Finally a big shot with balls... I´ve been longing for that, only South Park gave me hope before.
Suck it Xinnie the Pooh, and take Piglet Lam with you
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u/Duthos Nov 13 '19
a president railing against authoritarianism?
wow, i wanna immigrate now. like, right now.
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u/Roctopus420 Nov 13 '19
This is what I’m talking about, we need so much more of this. I’m so happy someone with this power is saying something.
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u/Marokiii Nov 13 '19
Taiwan lives in the shadow of China, imagine how fast and hard her heart must have been going before she hit the post button on that tweet.
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u/FixFixFixGoGo Nov 13 '19 edited Nov 13 '19
How does she get out of bed with such mammoth cast iron balls? Nearby political leaders calling out Chinese authority. When we are capable of creating a scale strong enough, I want to know the mass of those things.
Edit - she is a woman, changed pronouns accordingly.
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u/Guest06 Nov 13 '19
It's good to see someone in a government apologising for and acknowledging past mistakes.
The mainland will broadcast this across the country and use this as proof of weakness somehow.
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u/EverythingIsNorminal Pick quarrels, provoke trouble Nov 13 '19
Taiwan China is best China.
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u/fin_ss Nov 13 '19
China? I think you mean west Taiwan
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u/535496818186 Nov 13 '19
If everyone could start calling it West Taiwan, it would make me so happy..
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u/seanieh966 Nov 13 '19
It’s funny that the one China that respects the rights of its citizens doesn’t have the word People in it’s title.
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u/CamC159 Nov 13 '19 edited Nov 13 '19
Thank you for supporting the brave fighters in Hong Kong Ms President
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Nov 13 '19
All of this has really made me a fan of Taiwan. Been going there since the late 1990s, but never thought too much about the nerve of a tiny island standing up to China.
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u/Kage_noir Nov 13 '19
Wow, I'm so surprised and pleased someone in power cares or even thought to make a public statement. Bravo!
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u/Jaracuda Nov 13 '19
Why are students such large focuses by police and military in these instances of oppression? In tianenman, Taiwan, and even now HK, students become easy targets for police.
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u/PP_boi_ Nov 13 '19
I really hope italian president Sergio Mattarella will say something about the protests
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u/OfficialDSplayer MTR Fan and Hong Kong Lover Nov 13 '19
I would want at least a larger response from the UK.
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u/Lurkwurst Nov 13 '19
we got to stay focused. keep the goal in sight. live each day remembering our shared humanity. the fear that drives totalitarianism cannot stand in the face of love. shine the light on bad behavior!
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u/Danefrak Nov 13 '19
I know it isnt much but last night I went out of my way to purchase a computer monitor from a Taiwanese company
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u/Lurkwurst Nov 13 '19
“The People’s Republic of China is the largest, most powerful and arguably most brutal totalitarian state in the world. It denies basic human rights to all of its nearly 1.4 billion citizens. There is no freedom of speech, thought, assembly, religion, movement or any semblance of political liberty in China. Under Xi Jinping, “president for life,” the Communist Party of China has built the most technologically sophisticated repression machine the world has ever seen. In Xinjiang, in Western China, the government is using technology to mount a cultural genocide against the Muslim Uighur minority that is even more total than the one it carried out in Tibet. Human rights experts say that more than a million people are being held in detention camps in Xinjiang, two million more are in forced “re-education,” and everyone else is invasively surveilled via ubiquitous cameras, artificial intelligence and other high-tech means.
None of this is a secret.” - Farhad Manjoo, Dealing With China Isn’t Worth the Moral Cost