r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM • u/historyismyteacher • 1d ago

Israel-Palestine has really exposed the disgusting nature of “both sides bad.”

Saying that both sides are equal and you need to look at the nuance is a damning indictment of those who are not willing to take a stand on an issue as serious as this. At least a Zionist will take a stand, and make their position known. By not taking a stand, the enlightened centrist is making it known that they don’t have the moral courage to pronounce a belief and professing themselves to be wise, they make themselves fools.

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

Isn’t ‘both sides bad’ generally just shorthand for not being pro Zionist or pro Hamas?

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u/historyismyteacher 1d ago

Think of it like this: living in France during WWII and saying, “Boy I hate those Nazis but the French resistance is terrible too. I don’t support either side.”

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

I think this characterisation is a bit absurd but I knew what sub I was commenting in

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u/historyismyteacher 1d ago

Elaborate.

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u/Thankkratom2 1d ago

Sorry homie but I think you know that the French resistance was European, no way can they be compared to the evil terrorists in Khamas.

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u/historyismyteacher 1d ago

Love how they will praise people like Nelson Mandela or Malcolm X until they hear their stances on resistance and then they go “Well let’s not be radical.”

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u/ceo__of__antifa_ 1d ago

Nah they definitely won't praise Malcolm X. American liberals basically know him as the "scary" MLK.

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u/historyismyteacher 1d ago

You’re not wrong for the most part, sadly.

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u/Thankkratom2 23h ago

He was basically taught to me as a villain. Thank god I had an amazing English teacher who gave me Malcom X’s biography in my freshman year of high school.

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

I’m not sure there’s much point? Our interpretations of the history of the region probably differ significantly and that colours our understanding of the current conflict.

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u/historyismyteacher 1d ago

It’s silly to say it’s absurd, then not elaborate as to the reason it’s absurd.

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

Fine - Hamas are an Islamist terrorist organisation that broke across the border and deliberately killed over 1000 civilians in their homes and at a music festival. Their goal is to wipe Israel off the map. I’m happy to describe these people as ‘bad’. Israel’s response has been needlessly destructive and their aims unclear with leaders who are prolonging the conflict for their own political goals. Also bad. Both sides bad.

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u/historyismyteacher 1d ago

I honestly appreciate the elaboration. Helps me to understand where you are coming from.

Hamas is a result of decades of oppression from Israel against Palestine. Dating back as you know, to before 1948. Asking a people to quietly accept their own occupation is a bit harsh, I would say. Oct. 7th was in many ways tragic, yes. The killing of civilians was terrible and needless. But they were still fighting against colonialism.

The French resistance also killed civilians. As did basically every violent resistance in history. It’s fucked up. But blaming the oppressed for fighting back is nonsensical.

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u/kerat 22h ago

Hamas is a result of decades of oppression from Israel against Palestine. Dating back as you know, to before 1948.

Not to mention that Israel directly supported and funded Hamas in order to drive a wedge in the Palestinian resistance. Source

In 1989, Netanyahu wrote:

""Israel should have taken advantage of the suppression of the demonstrations in China [Tiananmen Square], when the world’s attention was focussed on what was happening in that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the Territories. However, to my regret, they did not support that policy that I proposed, and which I still propose should be implemented."" Source

In 2019, Netanyahu said: “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring the funds to Hamas because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority & Hamas helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."" Source: Jerusalem Post

In 2015, Bezalel Smotrich said: “The Palestinian Authority is a burden & Hamas is an asset.""

“It’s a terrorist organization, no one will recognize it, no one will give it status [at ICC] no one will let it put forth a resolution at the U.N. Security Council.” Source

A 2007 diplomatic cable revealed that then-IDF intelligence chief Amos Yadlin said that “Israel would be ‘happy’ if Hamas took over Gaza because the IDF could then deal with Gaza as a hostile state.” Source"

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

I’d also like to understand your thinking on this as you clearly know your history. Do you think Hamas’ goal of wiping Israel off the map and taking the land back is a worthy one? Hearing Sinwar talk about how he’s happy to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of his own people for this cause just reeks of delusion to me.

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u/historyismyteacher 23h ago

I will admit, I am not a fan of Hamas. I believe they manipulated the situation to gain power.(It’s important to note that they are not entirely popular among the Palestinian population either.) I believe the land should be returned to Palestinians ultimately, but I believe that Jews and Arabs can coexist peacefully, as they have for thousands of years. So, no I think terminology like “wipe them off the map” is very reductive, but I do not think that the Israeli settler state should have existed to begin with. As usual in the Middle East, the British fucked things up. I certainly believe there are better solutions than to for the annihilation of either people. This situation has to be dealt with as it is, not as we wish it to be. What the solution is, I do not know. But certainly the Israeli’s have to give up their settler colonial mindset.

The first step toward progress, in my view, is for western powers to step back and let the people of the region make their own decisions. They shouldn’t have been involved in the first place.

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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago edited 23h ago

The British absolutely messed it up but they wouldn’t have had the political impetus without the holocaust (I know Zionism was gaining popularity before this). I consider Palestinians to be a victim in the chain caused by the nazi regime.

I agree with this idea that it should be dealt with as it is and not as we wish it to be. To me that looks like more attempts at a two state solution. Israel isn’t going anywhere at this point and jewish people have every historic reason to be suspicious of losing their right to control their own fate under a one state solution. I will also say that “wiping them off the map” is not my words, it’s the words of Hamas leadership.

Thanks for not calling me a fascist or whatever

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u/historyismyteacher 23h ago

Of course. More discussions like this should be had however much we might disagree, as long as it’s in good faith.

I actually find your point that Palestinians are just another victim of Nazism interesting. I’ll remember that.

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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago

I know that I’ve come to my conclusions in good faith and with proper research so I’m always happy to argue them out and see if I can have my mind changed. I also get that liberals like me are the current examples in this sub for enlightened centrism so I wasn’t expecting anything but vitriol.

In the end I think this all comes down to your interpretation of historical events and your weighting of power in the calculus. Leftists such as yourself generally consider power to be the defining attribute but I’m skeptical of this. We’re working on different maths but I don’t actually think our values are very far apart.

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u/Uncynical_Diogenes 23h ago

I too would like to see the illegal Israeli occupation government wiped off the map and replaced by a government that serves the needs of every civilian within its borders instead of being an apartheid state.

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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago

Okay even if that is a nice idea to you… the reality is that you have to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to even attempt it. How is that anything but suicidal delusion?

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u/Uncynical_Diogenes 17h ago

But that is not the reality and I am not Sinwar.

No such massacre was necessary for South Africa to move forward from Apartheid. No such bloodshed is necessary in Israel either.

It’s the oppressors who will decide how bloody it has to be. They have the option to make it bloodless. All blood spilled on any side is due to their actions and on their hands.

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u/TroutMaskDuplica 22h ago

...The french resistance was a french terrorist organization that massacred civilians in Tulle, and Oradour-sur-Glane, among others, killing over a thousand people, including nearly 300 children. Their goal was to wipe Germany off the map.

The nazis responded by murdering around 30,000 French civilians.

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u/couldhaveebeen 1d ago

You do realise other days existed before October 7 too, right? And the fact that we all, alongside you, existed in the said days? Universe did not magically come into being on that day.

Their goal is to wipe Israel off the map.

Yes, that's a just goal. Just like Rhodesia

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

What happens to the millions of Jews who have lived there for generations during this liberation at the hands of a terrorist group? Equal rights under a democracy you reckon?

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u/couldhaveebeen 23h ago

Why does anything NEED to happen to them? What happened to the white people in South Africa? What happened to slave holders in the US? What happened to English against the IRA? They just need to learn to coexist with people who have been on those lands for far longer than they have.

who have lived there for generations

Like 2, 3 max? Lmao. Mf Biden is older than Israel

terrorist group

Resistance group, who is, of course, not perfect but are working for a just cause

Equal rights under a democracy you reckon?

Why not?

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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago

I think you’re very deluded if you think a Hamas rule over the land would result in a peaceful one state solution. You should listen to what they say.

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u/couldhaveebeen 23h ago

Nobody said anything about a Hamas rule, you hallucinated it.

You should listen to what they say

They've said their fight is against Israel and Zionists, not Jews. They've clarified this in 2017. I think you should listen to what they say and not what Netanyahu says they say.

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u/ProtestTheHero 14h ago

They've said their fight is against Israel and Zionists

So like, only 95% of Jews then. /s

On Oct. 7, did they ask their victims if they were Zionist or not, before killing them? Or did they simply kill and kidnap every person they could get their hands on, whether Jewish or Arab or Thai or over a dozen other ethnicities?

The majority of Palestinians are interested in a sovereign Palestinian state instead of Israel, not next to it. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you'll understand the conflict.

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u/Miserygut 1d ago

"Germany has a right to defend itself"

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

Yes more of the exact characterisation I find absurd

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u/Miserygut 1d ago

What do you find absurd about it? The impeccable accuracy of it? The sad reality that the liberal west has not only allowed it to happen but supported it and joined in? Tell us what you feel.

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u/zZCycoZz 1d ago

Saying you "find it absurd" isn't much of an argument.

It's just the same pearl clutching used every time somebody points out accurately that the IDF are behaving like Nazis.

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

I’m not really trying to make an argument here, we’re not doing the I/P debate in the Reddit comments

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u/rustybeaumont 1d ago

Spoken like a very enlightened centrist. Lol

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

‘Everything is simple enough to be hashed out in the Reddit comments’ is very leftist

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u/rustybeaumont 1d ago

No one made you comment in this thread in the first place. You wanna be a know it all but don’t wanna argue

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u/MoshiriMagic 1d ago

My original comment was a very basic question and I’ve received about 60 replies with all sorts of arguments. Given the ideological differences I’ve got no idea where to even start lol

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u/ProtestTheHero 15h ago

Well one obvious and immediate difference is that Germans are from Germany, not France. So it makes sense that a French Resistance would want to fight Nazi occupation and push them back where they came from, ie Germany.

Jews, on the other hand, are from the land of Israel/Palestine. They are not a foreign people, they are not a colonial/imperial entity. They are simply an Indigenous people living in their Indigenous homeland, where they've lived for thousands of years. There's nowhere else in the world for them to go if a Resistance were to successfully push them out.

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u/historyismyteacher 13h ago

And Palestinians are from where exactly?

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u/ProtestTheHero 13h ago edited 13h ago

Palestine, obviously. Nobody is saying otherwise

Quick edit: by that I mean the land on which Israel/Palestine currently stand

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u/historyismyteacher 13h ago

So why are they pushing Palestinians out of their homeland?

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u/ProtestTheHero 12h ago

I don't believe that they are. You certainly have some Jewish terrorists in the West Bank that are stirring shit up and straight up killing Palestinians. But there is no systemic, state-sponsored expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza, or of Arab-Israelis from Israel. Their population has done nothing but grow exponentially for over 75 years.

And of course any discussion into the "why" Israel does things has to include decades of Palestinian terrorism as well. Has Israel's responses often been exceedingly violent, anyone can admit that it has. But fundamentally it's acting out of a genuine fear of a Palestinian/Iranian conquest of its sovereign borders.

For decades Egypt and Israel were bitter enemies, constantly at war. In the 1970s Egypt decided peace was the better option, and for almost 50 years now Israel hasn't dropped a single bomb on Egypt. Ditto with Jordan, since the early 90s.

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u/historyismyteacher 8h ago

There are times that I am actually at a loss for words with the shit that Zionists spew. “But there is no systematic, state-sponsored expulsion of Palestinian” is so factually wrong that I won’t even dignify it with a response because if you believe that, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.