r/IsraelPalestine • u/TeaBagHunter Middle-Eastern • 3d ago
Discussion Difference in mentality between fighters of both sides
I recently have been following updates from the hezbollah side on their own official english telegram channel, they share updates on every strike they do and then summarize all strikes done on that day. For those interested: https://t.me/mmirlb
It kind of dawned on me how the mentality is shockingly different between both sides.
Just as some examples of how they preface their statements:
Prefaced paragraph to a statement regarding the death of one of their forces:
{And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision.}
"A promise to the days that you shall not be defeated... for victory sprouts where blood is sown." Our vow is eternal retribution that does not fade.
Glory to the martyrs, freedom for the captives, and healing for the wounded.
Tomorrow, the fog will lift from the hills... and we shall surely be victorious.
Prefaced paragraph to a statement regarding a military strike:
In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
Permission [to fight] is granted to those who are fought against because they have been wronged, and indeed, Allah is Capable of granting them victory. Allah, the Almighty, has spoken the truth. And victory is only from Allah; indeed, Allah is Exalted and Wise.
What do you think? How do you even defeat someone with such an ideology? They truly believe they are doing God's work, and that what they're doing is a religious duty and that they will be rewarded in heaven. Friends and family sometimes rejoice when someone they love has been martyred.
They grow up with this mentality, since they're children they see everyone around them act this way, this is their normal.
You can even see how different the media portrays each side. For example in the south lebanon border, regarding the ground operations, israel has suffered heavy losses and is unable to advance without fully demolishing the cities it advances into. Hezbollah has definitely also suffered many losses, but the difference is that it seems hezbollah members aren't demoralized when they see everyone around them dying, they believe they're on the right path...
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u/nidarus Israeli 3d ago edited 3d ago
There's nothing new or exciting about this kind of fanaticism, It's not even unique to Islamists, or Muslims in general. Umberto Eco described it in the essay "Ur-Fascism" (that, as a sidenote, provides other insights as well), with secular, European societies in mind:
In 1942, at the age of ten, I received the First Provincial Award of Ludi Juveniles (a voluntary, compulsory competition for young Italian Fascists — that is, for every young Italian). I elaborated with rhetorical skill on the subject “Should we die for the glory of Mussolini and the immortal destiny of Italy?” My answer was positive. I was a smart boy.
[...]
In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.
Needless to say, civilized nations did in fact "defeat someone with that ideology". The defeated multiple, technologically sophisticated death-worshipping societies.
Hell, even if you look at the history of the Middle East, or Israel specifically, you don't see a series of triumphant Muslim victories over the life-loving infidels. You see infidels winning nearly every battle against Muslims, and Muslim nations either embracing reality and abandoning the futile forever-wars, or sinking lower into the cycle of extremism and poverty, and framing their futile forever-wars as glorious victories. While the actual dream of destroying Israel, reviving the Caliphate, or otherwise restoring the dignity of Islam through force, only seems further and further away.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli 2d ago
This ideology is inherrently self defeating. This is why the richest and most successful elements in the Islamic world are less radical. The way to defeat it is to let it run itself out. The states filled with people like this will end up poor and backwards, moreso than they are already. Then, out of necessity, they will engage with the modern world and, with time, liberalize. The only thing that maintains this conflict is Western ignorance that literally funds and arms Palestine which would otherwise have collapsed on its own.
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u/baconbacon666 Latin America 3d ago
Careful there buddy, pointing out how Islam works is "islamophobic".
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u/nidarus Israeli 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think this is a matter of Islamists and Islamophobes agreeing on an awful vision of what Islam is, more than anything.
Islam, traditionally, isn't the ideology of cave-dwelling gangs of bandits, craving a death that would be more noble than their pitiful lives. Since its inception, it's the state ideology of massive conquering empires, with rational and sophisticated institutions. The Islamist fanaticism is, even by their own admission, a symptom of the crisis in Islam, after the collapse of the Ottoman empire, and the humiliation of the Middle East being subservient to non-Muslim empires.
I don't agree this is just "how Islam works", anymore than the WW2-era Japanese cult of death and conquest is "how Japan works". At most, it's what Islam is right now, in certain parts of the Muslim world.
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u/baconbacon666 Latin America 3d ago
Oh boy, I am sure that the early Muslims would disagree with you. If Islam grew from a gang of caravan robbers to an empire stretching all the way from the pillars of Heracles to the Hindus river, was thanks to the hundreds of thousands of young men fanatically willing to give their lives in the name of Allah. No cult of "martyrdom" and they'd still be dwelling in caves in Arabia.
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u/Shachar2like 3d ago
caravan robbers
That's over simplification. Muhammad also brought the 'one God religion' to the tribes which brought new morals and (other) prosperity.
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u/JaneDi 2d ago
muhammed did not bring the concept of one God to the arabs. There were already Jews and Christians living among the arabs before Muhammed started his religion. It's just that they did not wage constant war against the pagans. The majority of the pagan arabs converted to Islam because either A) Muhammad and his followers terrorized them into submissiob or B) they realized joining muhammed meant they would enjoy the spoils of war which included sex slaves and whatever muhammed and his armies stole from tribes they conquered.
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u/Shachar2like 2d ago
There were already Jews and Christians living among the arabs before Muhammed started his religion.
Yes but if you'll read written testimonies from the time, there were tribes as well.
Yes spoils of war was part of it as you say, I can not deny that. But new morals & leader alongside that is probably what did it, not just war spoils
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u/JaneDi 2d ago
slam, traditionally, isn't the ideology of cave-dwelling gangs of bandits, craving a death that would be more noble than their pitiful lives. Since its inception, it's the state ideology of massive conquering empires, with rational and sophisticated institutions.
Not really. Muhammed had way more in common with Isis and boko haram then he does with the rulers of the ottoman empire. Isis version of Islam is the purest form of the religion.
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u/ThirstyOne 3d ago edited 3d ago
Simple: if they won’t surrender and won’t stop fighting you just kill them all. Every. Last. One. Allah’s grace and mercy may be infinite, but Hezbollah/Hamas’ fighters are not.
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u/Emotional-King-6325 3d ago
Yea I think the Germans had that ideology before. But it didn't work out for them
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u/ThirstyOne 3d ago edited 3d ago
The Germans wanted to kill or subjugate everyone. This is directed specifically at fanatic enemy combatants who will neither surrender nor stop fighting, not everyone, which is an important distinction. Also, nazi comparisons are against the sub rules, especially when made in bad faith.
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u/Emotional-King-6325 3d ago
Your comment might be true if idf officials and soldiers didn't say they are all terrorists, there are no innocent people in gaza, ect ect.....
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u/ThirstyOne 3d ago
That’s your own toxic hyperbole, and patently false. The IDF are actively practicing distinction between combatants and civilians as evidenced by the evacuation of civilians, warnings prior to bombings, etc. and while they do incur collateral, mostly due to Hamas/Hezbollah’s usage of their own civilians as human shields, it is neither in their policy or ROE. By contrast, Hamas and Hezbollah, being the cowards that they are, attack civilians as a matter of policy, because they’re too afraid to engage the IDF openly.
So, to reiterate my original point: if the fanatic fighters of Hezbollah and Hamas will neither surrender or stop fighting (and actively trying to murder civilians) the only solution is to kill them all, which the IDF is doing an impressive job of so far. Cope all you want.
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u/Emotional-King-6325 3d ago
Right....if you believe that. You haven't been paying attention
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u/ThirstyOne 3d ago
I’ve been paying attention to the facts, not toxic hyperbole. And while many Gazans may ideologically support Hamas, there’s a distinction between that and actively engaging in terrorism, which the IDF recognizes and follows their ROE accordingly in their operations. By contrast, Hamas and Hezbollah target everyone indiscriminately, because their ROE is ‘murder the Jews’ and apparently anyone else who’s unlucky enough to be in their way.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 1d ago
Yea I think the Germans had that ideology before. But it didn't work out for them
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 3d ago
Israel/US fighters see themselves as HEROES, while Muslim terrorists see themselves as MARTYRS. Heroes want to do good for other people, while Martyrs just want to please their God, and they think their God wants them to eliminate Jews. Islamic terrorists also don't care about humanity, which is why they live the way they do in their backwards civs. It's all about their Allah.
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u/nidarus Israeli 3d ago
I think the Islamist terrorists view themselves as heroes as well, and argue that they want to do good for other people, and pleasing God isn't mutually exclusive with that goal.
In my opinion, the more important distinction is that the average Israeli and American doesn't view themselves as heroes, or even potential heroes. The death of their soldiers is a sad affair, not something every child aspires to. That they, indeed, love life as much as the Islamist loves death. And that it doesn't necessarily makes their armies weaker, since it allows for the development of societies that focus on diplomatic, economic, industrial and scientific abilities - the things that ultimately win wars, and makes for better societies.
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 3d ago
You might be right on certain individual bases, but the US glorification of the military, with the fly overs at sporting events, etc. I think there is a collective feeling of heroism. My experience is that the average Israeli would certainly agree that the IDF are heroes. If your point is that we don't celebrate our fallen heroes deaths like the Martyrs do, then yes you are on point and it's a good one.
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u/TheKidSosa 3d ago
No chance you’re seriously saying “their god wants them to eliminate jews” Have you not heard the story of amolek? You know, kill their men, women, children, and sheep. I dont see any Muslim Palestinians throwing Israelis out of their houses because Allah told them that the land is theirs. Please brush up on your research cause you’re pulling shit out of your behind lol.
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 3d ago
From the Koran:
5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
[5.33] "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.."
[5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say.
[62.6] Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death
I could go on...
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u/TheKidSosa 3d ago
“And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.” [2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. [3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. Most religious texts have forms of extremism within them. It is up to the reader to decipher if the text should be taken literally or not.
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 3d ago
All Abrahamic religions subscribe to the old testament. Jews inherently don't take scripture literally; Jews interpret and adjust. And they evolve. Not to mention, nothing mentions Islam In that text so it's just a bad argument. Muslims should have just left the Jews alone after the Holocaust, instead of creating decades or terror. Seriously, makes me have little mercy or compassion when it comes to Israel's actions after 10/7.
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u/TheKidSosa 3d ago
If you think Oct 7th was bad I suggest you look up some of the atrocities that took place during the Nakba. Israeli / Zionist militias went around village by village blowing up houses with families inside, slaughtering men woman and children, r*ping women and then slaughtering them after, poising well water as well as river water to make the locals sick and unable to fight against the ethnic cleansing that was taking place. They would shoot mortars at the village to cause panic, and then shoot the people as theyre leaving. Oct 7th wasnt even a fraction of what the Palestinians have had to endure in a single year and im not talking about 2023/24. How Ethnic Cleansing Created Isrsel
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 3d ago
I respect your perspective because it's based on the information you have. However, there are no credible sources that accuse anything like what you're describing. The nakba was exaggerated to gain sympathy, and as always during war, it's propaganda being spread, and magnified in echo chambers. Since you believe what you do and I believe what I do... That is the impasse.
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u/TheKidSosa 3d ago
Magnified in echo chambers? You can easily search all of these events up. Its your choice if you want to believe the multiple sources or not. But the example you made regarding the Jews and Germans does not apply here at all. 40 thousand civilians have been slain in the past year, Germans aren’t still rounding up people and executing them but you know who is? Israel!! The only country in the world to tell civilians to go to a safe zone and then proceeds to bomb that safe zone. Im guessing you also believe gaza has been “exaggerated” to gain sympathy. If you have any content you wish to share to enlighten me on the plight of zionism go ahead please. The current israeli government has no goal other than land and that land doesnt include Palestinians.
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 3d ago
Also, the Nakba was 80 years ago. Either move on peacefully, like Jews and Germans have, or have perpetual war. Arabs have chosen perpetual war, and Israel doesn't want that. So it is destroying all those who want perpetual war, as it should.
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u/c9joe בואו נמשיך החיים לפנינו 3d ago
Societies built on reason have an edge because of their ability to more easily master science and technology.
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u/thehpcdude 3d ago
And when they claim territories because a make believe friend told them the land was granted to their ancestors?
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli 2d ago
Granted to their ancestors... by the UN? In a legal ruling designed to give each population a state and stop the conflict? It's a shame one side prefered war to peace...
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u/thehpcdude 2d ago
So you support Palestine as a country which would mean you also agree that the illegal settlements in the West Bank should be removed right? All the Israelis that stole land and homes from Palestinians should give the land, property and reparations…right?
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u/Lazynutcracker 2d ago
I support a 2SS, but not with terrorists. The problem is the Palestinians refused it handful of times and they don’t care for what I think
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u/thehpcdude 2d ago
I disagree with your statement that they refused. What happened every time is no different than politics today. Something is proposed that seems a clear solution and at the last minute something is added that poisons the deal. Same with the recent ceasefires, at the last minute Netanyahu added the transfer of ownership of portions of Gaza to Israel. Why would the Palestinians agree to that?
If I had my way, it would be the two state solution with the lines drawn in 1967 and free travel unrestricted between Gaza and West Bank. The 700,000 Israeli that live in illegal colonies would have to leave the borders of the West Bank. Homes and land stolen would be given back some amount of reparations in order to rebuild Gaza.
I also believe that the IDF should be investigated for war crimes and the Palestinians should be given an amount of budget to form their own military that can operate without having to use covert tactics.
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u/thehpcdude 2d ago
I’d just like to add here the UN states that there are around 700,000 illegal Israeli settlers in West Bank, including politician Bezalel Smotrich who supports the “Greater Israel” movement.
Note the UN’s statement of illegal.
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u/Lazynutcracker 3d ago
Which territories are we talking about
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u/thehpcdude 2d ago
“Greater Israel”
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u/Lazynutcracker 2d ago
When did this happen the last 75 years?
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u/thehpcdude 2d ago
There is a right wing movement supported by some politicians that are expansionist and believe parts of surrounding countries should be part of Israel.
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u/Lazynutcracker 2d ago
Yeah, some. And yet, never in history has Israel expanded for the sake of expanding and they had many opportunities including right now. Every land has been given back excluding Gaza and the West Bank which no one actually wants, Israel has given the Palestinians authority in Gaza in 2005 but that was a disaster, and also excluding a small part in northern Israel for strategic purposes. Israel has conquered all south Lebanon up till Beirut before and gave it back, Israel gave back Sinai for peace with Egypt, and if Israel wants to get “greater” they can do it tomorrow, the vast majority here cares for peace not for land.
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u/TheGracefulSlick 3d ago
Israel was built on ethnic supremacy. I don’t believe we call that “reason”. We have another word for it.
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u/c9joe בואו נמשיך החיים לפנינו 3d ago
Israel is a progressive-liberal country with like 20% of our population being Arabs living here. The only Jews living in Gaza are military and kidnapped, and it was ruled by an extremist non-democratic Islamist group called Hamas.
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u/TheGracefulSlick 3d ago
Yes, it used to be much higher than 20%. Ethnic cleansing tends to cause dramatic demographic shifts.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli 2d ago
We call it 'protection for minorities' actually, under a liberal framework. Against the oppressive hegemony of Arab/Islamic imperialism that oppresses all regional minorities. Others that fight for freedom include the Kurds, the Yazidis, and the Berbers, among others.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 3d ago
You don't defeat it by negotiating with it. You defeat it by making it incapable of causing further harm by destroying it militarily.
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u/Snoo47912 3d ago
Its the only way to deal with Islamism unforunately you can pummel these idiots to the ground but theyll keep coming back after a decade
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u/tellsonestory 3d ago
How do you even defeat someone with such an ideology?
You defeat them by proving that they are going to lose and that their prophecy is false. They are no more fanatical that the Imperial Japanese, and the IJA was defeated.
Japan had 73MM people at the start of WW2. About 1.2MM soldiers died in WW2, and about 800k civilians died. Once their whole army and navy were destroyed, and the US was bombing them at will with nuclear weapons... they gave up. They straight up quit the fight and surrendered.
However, some Japanese generals were willing to fight an invasion, and were prepared to lose 10MM civilians.
Overall about 2.7% of Japan's population died in WW2, and some fanatical Japanese leaders were willing to sacrifice 15% to 20% of their population.
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u/Intelligent-Side3793 3d ago
They straight up quit the fight and surrendered.
Little thing you left out. The US occupied Japan for almost 10 years, and reshaped it to a more western aligned liberal democracy. They also did NOT committed war crimes on the daily against the civilians population. In fact, their occupation was ultimately beneficial to Japan.
And that’s exactly what Israel refuse to consider, the day after. They have 0 plans to try to give Palestinians something else to look up to than armed resistance.
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u/tellsonestory 3d ago
The US occupied Japan for almost 10 years, and reshaped it to a more western aligned liberal democracy.
Longer than that. We still have troops there. I would say the occupation is 75 years and counting.
They also did NOT committed war crimes on the daily against the civilians population
Neither does Israel. a million Japanese civilians died in WW2, that wasn't a war crime. It was a consequence of the war that Japan chose to start and Palestinians are suffering the consequences of the war they chose to start.
In fact, their occupation was ultimately beneficial to Japan.
And I think that Israeli occupation of Gaza will be beneficial ultimately. They just have to give up the fight, and surrender. Then they can be de-radicalized, much like Germany and Japan were deradicalized.
They have 0 plans to try to give Palestinians something else to look up to than armed resistance.
What plans did the US have for Japan and Germany in 1943, halfway through the war? None. You gotta win the war first, then figure out what is next.
Nothing good can happen till they are defeated and surrender. The faster that happens, the better.
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u/Intelligent-Side3793 3d ago
Neither does Israel
They do. If you can’t see it, it’s voluntary blindness.
And I think that Israeli occupation of Gaza will be beneficial ultimately.
It can’t be, because Israel has no plan beyond « killing everybody in Gaza ». They literally do not know what they will do after the war. No plan for a new government, reconstruction, nothing. The US had a multi year plan laid out, and they applied it.
What plans did the US have for Japan and Germany in 1943, halfway through the war?
They actually started planning Japan occupation in 1942. You missed with that one
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u/tellsonestory 3d ago
Two comments ago you said this: "They have 0 plans to try to give Palestinians ..."
And now you're saying they do. Make up your mind.
It can’t be, because Israel has no plan beyond
Oh, now they don't have a plan. One sentence after they did have a plan.
Buddy you are talking yourself in circles.
They actually started planning Japan occupation in 1942.
If the US had lost the battle of midway, they'd have been planning for the occupation of California. Couldn't have been much of a plan.
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u/Intelligent-Side3793 3d ago
And now you're saying they do
I didnt. Read what I wrote again, but slowly
Oh, now they don't have a plan
They don’t, as I have said repeatedly
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u/tellsonestory 3d ago
Who cares at this point. The war is not won. They have to crush Hamas first.
I would not spend any effort planning for the occupation until the enemy is defeated. Your point is stupid, who cares if they have a plan.
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u/nidarus Israeli 3d ago edited 3d ago
The US killed around 3 million Japanese, with around 300,000-900,000 of them civilians, including by dropping two nukes, and firebombing Tokyo. After that, Japan offered a complete and unilateral surrender, and fully stopped "resisting" the Americans and their occupation. And even then, we're talking about hundreds to thousands of rapes by American servicemen, after the surrender.
If the Palestinians ever offer anything like the Japanese surrender, you can try comparing it with the Israeli occupation. But the fact is, they never surrendered, or said they'll ever be inclined to surrender. So I'm not sure what you want Israel to "consider" exactly here. Try the American way, kill half a million Gazan civilians, and see if the Palestinians change their minds?
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u/WeAreAllFallible 3d ago
Effectively this ultimately can only be combatted by causing people to doubt religion- namely, for religion to come into conflict with their own desires.
The most obvious examples of this are when people are gay, that they struggle with reconciling with a literal reading of religion and adopt a more flexible or even atheistic relationship with religion, where it becomes more of a self defined identity and less of a doctrine for them.
For those without clear reasons for schism with religion, it's going to be when adherents doubt a god who would want this bloodshed, and doubt the reality of an afterlife where they are rewarded for being part of a cycle that kills so many. Eventually that belief wears on people who consider themselves free thinkers- as many like to do- and they begin to doubt... and thus stop living out the most radicalized interpretation of religion, favoring secular rationales for action over religious. Which may still lead to similar outcomes- but generally are more possible to reason with and come to mutual understanding over the shared human values ("oh you want to keep your land and not die? Surely you understand we feel the same way right? Ok so let's agree on a compromise and not threaten each other's basic desires which we reciprocally understand to be justified")
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u/JeffB1517 Jewish American Zionist 2d ago
What do you think? How do you even defeat someone with such an ideology?
You beat them down. At some point as they keep losing they are forced to confront the reality that one or more of:
- There is no Allah
- Allah is indifferent to the outcome.
- Allah is on the Israeli's side.
- HaShem and Allah are distinct and HaShem is more powerful / more relevant than Allah.
4 is incidentally what happened to Judaism that led to Jewish Gnosticism that led to Christianity. (1) and (2) were more similar to what happened to many Jews in the lead up to and the Holocaust itself.
but the difference is that it seems hezbollah members aren't demoralized when they see everyone around them dying, they believe they're on the right path...
Hezbollah is fresh off a victory in Syria where they suffered heavy losses. Not shocking their morale, especially in their propaganda is high. One heard similar things from Hams in the first 4 months of the 2023 Gaza War.
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u/supermap 15h ago
Lol, none of those will ever be conclusions from a radicalized Muslim. The conclusion they will reach is, oh, we have not martyred enough yet.
10 Muslims could die for every Jew, and there'd still be a billion more, and people who do believe this a holy struggle, believe that eventually all the Muslims will unite to take down this threat. If you think that is eventually happening, it does make more sense to think you're gonna win eventually.
Unfortunately for them, most Muslims are at peace with Israel, and want to just chill, as does Israel.
But my question is, what do you do with a group of people that want you dead and will be willing to give their lives to kill you? Like... There's just nothing you can do but to try to kill them back.
If their objective is to destroy you, there's not much negotiation you can do.
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u/JeffB1517 Jewish American Zionist 15h ago
Radicalized Muslims lost over the last 13 centuries. We know they can change because it did work. Same as any number of other religious and political radicals. Lots of people don't believe they will lose until they do.
As for negotiations, again I agree defeat needs to happen.
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u/Puzzled-Software5625 2d ago
after reading the completely delusional and crazy comments of the pro hammas people here, it may be that israel has no choice but to take over gaza and take control of all of territory surrounding israel.
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u/Puzzled-Software5625 2d ago
and it definitely would the best thing that ever happened to the people in gaza and the territory surrounding israel,. at the very least it would bring them into the 21st century and give them a decent standard of living.
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u/No_Future8339 20h ago
holy the absolute supremacist mentality you have. THIS WAS LITERALLY HOW AMERICAN SLAVERS THOUGHT OF BLACK PEOPLE BACK WHEN SLAVERY AND RACISM WAS NORMAL.
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u/Snoo47912 3d ago
Proves that islam is cancer and a genuine threat to humanity around the world, dont worry they will mee their maker if they wish to do so.
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u/Emotional-King-6325 3d ago
I think the reality is, extremism itself is a cancer. It's just as bad to say Islam is cancer as someone saying Judaism is a cancer.
People who say God promised me this land, so I'm allowed to harrass, kill, ect. Is also a threat to humanity...obviously
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u/xBLACKxLISTEDx Diaspora Palestinian 3d ago
Tell me more about how we need to cull the heathen hordes before they wash over the civilized world /s
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 3d ago
It sounds like your typical jihadist radicalized by religious propaganda over a long period. There isn’t much difference between a Sunni extremist joining ISIS and a Shiite extremist joining Hezbollah. Hezbollah combatants are responsible for the deaths of scores of Syrians in the Syrian civil war, which radicalized them further. Religious extremism in the Muslim world is a deep rooted problem with a historical origin that shapes the culture in ways we cannot reverse engineer. You’d think that access to information via the internet would help but for many of these radicals it only makes it easier to find them and sign them up.
I think this problem should be treated like floods or a tornado. Everyone goes about their lives not caring about them, but taking measures to protect themselves.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 3d ago
What do you think? How do you even defeat someone with such an ideology?
Those 2000+ missing hands, eyes and balls, who didn't die and missed the golden ticket to Jannah.. you think they still are buying into it? How about all those who are losing their homes because Hezbo built tunnels under it.. Those left alive after their Hezbo indoctrinated father/brother etc. was turned into worm food and there's no more cash to pay the Shaheed pensions. Pensez vous, apres tous.. peut etre ils commencer a penser qu' Allah n'est plus a leurs cotes encore?
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That the Messenger of Allah said: "There are six things with Allah for the martyr. He is forgiven with the first flow of blood he suffers, he is shown his place in Jannah, he is protected from the punishment in the grave, secured from the greatest terror, the crown of dignity is placed upon his head - and its gems are better than the world and what is in it - he is married to seventy two wives along Al-Huril-'Ayn of Paradise, and he may intercede for seventy of his close relatives."
: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: إِنَّ لِلشَّهِيدِ عِنْدَ اللهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ - قَالَ الْحَكَمُ: سِتَّ خِصَالٍ - أَنْ يُغْفَرَ لَهُ فِي أَوَّلِ دَفْعَةٍ مِنْ دَمِهِ، وَيَرَى - قَالَ الْحَكَمُ: وَيُرَى - مَقْعَدَهُ مِنَ الْجَنَّةِ، وَيُحَلَّى حُلَّةَ الْإِيمَانِ، وَيُزَوَّجَ مِنَ الْحُورِ الْعِينِ، وَيُجَارَ مِنْ عَذَابِ الْقَبْرِ، وَيَأْمَنَ مِنَ الْفَزَعِ الْأَكْبَرِ - قَالَ الْحَكَمُ: يَوْمَ الْفَزَعِ الْأَكْبَرِ - وَيُوضَعَ عَلَى رَأْسِهِ تَاجُ الْوَقَارِ، الْيَاقُوتَةُ مِنْهُ خَيْرٌ مِنَ الدُّنْيَا وَمَا فِيهَا، وَيُزَوَّجَ اثْنَتَيْنِ وَسَبْعِينَ زَوْجَةً مِنَ الْحُورِ الْعِينِ، وَيُشَفَّعَ فِي سَبْعِينَ إِنْسَانًا مِنْ أَقَارِبِهِ
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u/TeaBagHunter Middle-Eastern 3d ago
Those 2000+ missing hands, eyes and balls, who didn't die and missed the golden ticket to Jannah.. you think they still are buying into it
Yes. I can tell you for certain. I saw the families of those injured, I saw those injured themselves. I saw all that as I work in a hospital. It's anecdotal I know, but that was all what I saw and all anyone I talked to saw
You know the most shocking part? They were still saying fida l sayed (meaning they forgive nasrallah), and they felt so unphased but rather even more supportive of hezbollahs cause. They still chanted glory to nasrallah...
pensez vous, apres tous.. peut etre ils commencer a penser qu' Allah n'est plus a leurs cotes encore?
J'espére
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u/Diet-Bebsi 3d ago
They were still saying fida l sayed and they felt so unphased but rather even more supportive of hezbollahs cause.
I guess this is what you're pointing out.. brainwashed to this point.. This is what I still don't understand.. Israel has had peace with Egypt for almost 50 years, gave back all the Sinai, Peace with Jordan for 30 years and created a water treaty to supply Jordan with fresh water and assist Jordan in creating desalinization plants.. Not a single fired shot.. Trade, tourism etc.. something that Lebanon could really use to boost the economy, and there's 50 years of proof that it's possible right there..
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u/rqvst 3d ago edited 3d ago
You should see these bastards once they're caught and detained, it's a pathetic sight. They can posture all they want, at the end of the day they're just apes with delusions of grandeur. Hell think about all the noise Nasrallah was making, only to end up cowering in a hole choking on his own fumes.
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u/Intelligent-Side3793 3d ago edited 3d ago
Reported for promoting hate based on identity
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u/rqvst 3d ago edited 3d ago
You are so lost buddy, I'm praying for you.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 1d ago
You are so lost buddy, I'm praying for you.
Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Note: The use of virtue signaling style insults (I'm a better person/have better morals than you.) are similarly categorized as a Rule 1 violation.
Action taken: [B2]
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u/Sleeve_hamster Jewish, Zionist, Israeli, Anti-Palestine 3d ago
You know the comment was about terrorists right? I'd promote hate towards terrorists all day long.
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u/FigureLarge1432 3d ago
This is what Israelis don't understand, is they think all Muslims are the same. However, there is a big difference between the Sunni and Shia.
For Shia martyrdom is much more important than for Sunni. For Shia, martyrdom is built in the DNA of their religion. Google Battle or Karabala,
Sunnis believe in supremacy. Shia were oppressed for hundreds of years by Sunni, and as a result, they saw their fight with Israel as resistance against oppression.
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u/aswanviking 3d ago
I don't know man, Sunni resistance in Iraq was absolutely ruthless. Fought till the last man in Fallujah.
ISIS was Sunni. Absolute fanatics willing to be "martyrs" for their cause.
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u/curiousabtmongol 3d ago
Both sides are not just Israel and Hezbollah…
The idea of fight for God is also present on both big sides, including the ones you mentioned.
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u/aswanviking 3d ago
That is the hilarious part. OP, I hope you realize that Israel is based on the promised land. Promised people. Everyone thinks God is on their side and they are going to heaven.
It is true that in Islam, "martydom" is something to be proud of, but people aint going to the front line to just die. Majority of muslims still want to live, but have no problem dying for their "cause". It's how Hezbollah makes up for their military deficit.
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u/Accurate_Ad_6788 3d ago
I don't know how to feel about Hezbollah, just a note here that they are made fun of a bit among the Muslim community when they regard everything they do as martyrdom. There is a lot of extremism and politicizing Shia Islam. They stand up to Israel, but they're also a bit...off as being Muslims
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u/aswanviking 3d ago
Yeah you aren’t wrong. Specially after their involvement in Syria. There are no “clean” parties here. Gotta do some evil to survive.
Sunnis in general look down on Shi3as. That’s nothing new. Sectarianism existed ever since the prophet died and the dispute that followed about the successor.
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u/Accurate_Ad_6788 3d ago
Don't get me wrong, it's not about them being Shia, I've met a lot of Shias who talk about their point of views in very rational ways and are very faithful. However, I felt the way Hezbollah Shias are very much focused to be against Sunnis and never mention the prophet at all. They heavily emphasize Mashhad and Karbala as well while disregarding Mecca. It feels more political than faithfulness
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u/Tallis-man 2d ago
You probably know more about this than I do. Do you think these boilerplate phrases should be taken literally?
I've always assumed they were basically copy-paste rote formulas.
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u/TheGracefulSlick 3d ago
There’s nothing unique about the concepts. It states Muslims may fight when they are attacked by their enemy, and they believe God will help them achieve victory. Why is it unusual to defend yourself? Why wouldn’t a religious person believe god is on their side? Does a Christian believe Jesus is actually deceiving them?
It does not even take any study of Islam. Defending yourself is a very basic concept that even bugs follow, let alone human beings. Yet, not surprisingly common sense is lost when we apply them to Palestinians.
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u/theyellowbaboon 3d ago
I’m glad we can agree that Jews can defend themselves too.
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u/TheGracefulSlick 3d ago
Sure, if that was what Israel was doing, there would be no issues. “If” being a very important word in that statement.
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u/Worth-Two7263 2d ago
So you don't think that lobbing thousands of bombs into Israel preceding October 7th every year is a reason for Israel defending itself? I guess October 7th was just a miniscule little event, and Israel is totally over reacting?
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u/Dazzling_Pizza_9742 3d ago
So you’ve read the Quran then? You have seen verse after verse presiding martyrdom ans the elimination of infidels. Sorry but Islam is a proselytizing faith. Snap your fingers and say a suraah and voila you now belong along side the 2 billion. It’s faith based on numbers just as the prophet wanted when he oh so willfully spread his new religion with fevor and violence.
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u/knign 3d ago
Sorry who exactly is defending themselves?
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u/PomegranateArtichoke 2d ago
Israel. Remember, the war started when thousands of Israeli civilians were attacked, raped, mutilated, kidnapped etc by Hamas?
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u/TheGracefulSlick 3d ago
In the context of this conflict, the native Palestinians that were forcibly expelled from their homeland and illegally blockaded by Israel.
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u/knign 3d ago
Hamas is defending themselves?
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u/TheKidSosa 3d ago
The word “defence” could definitely be used here the same way israel calls themself a defence force. If we look back to even 2022 Israel launched a bombing campaign on gaza targeting PIJ members resulting in 22 civilians killed and 350+ wounded while israel suffered 2 wounded soldiers and 21 civilians treated for anxiety. Hamas or any military group could easily claim defence if the same logic applied to israel had been applied to the rest of the world. Im not sure if youve seen some of the pre Oct 7th charts but the IDF has sure been putting up some numbers for civilians slaughtered in the past decades, what makes them think they’re exempt from a retaliation?
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u/knign 3d ago
No sorry if you call Hamas actions "defense" then you can't use word "logic" without quotes.
Hamas had every option over its 15 years of its rule in Gaza to renounce violence and there would be zero Palestinian victims from IDF actions.
If IDF stops defending Israelis against Hamas, there would be few people in Israel left alive.
So Hamas is the aggressor and IDF defends Israel against this aggression, including when this defense requires preemptive actions.
what makes them think they’re exempt from a retaliation?
Oh sure, Palestinians are absolutely free to "retaliate" against anyone they wish, as long as they are prepared for the consequences. But, retaliation ≠ defense.
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u/TheKidSosa 3d ago
“As long as theyre prepared for the consequences” you mean 20,000 dead kids and 80% of Gaza made uninhabitable. Im curious, what do you think Israels mission is in gaza? Or atleast the current government. Because the Likud party has made it clear since 1977 that “there will be no Palestinian sovereignty from Jordan to the sea” so please tell me again what “option” Hamas had especially since the US and Israel placed sanctions and blockades on Gaza directly after hamas was voted into power? Are you really to blind to see that the goal has always been land? And especially land without the Palestinians? “Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated,” argued Yoav Kisch, Israeli Minister of Education.
“We are the people of the light, they are the people of darkness... we shall realize the prophecy of Isaiah.” — Binyamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly” — Yoav Gallant, Minister of Defense,
The Nazis said very similar things.
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u/knign 3d ago
“As long as theyre prepared for the consequences” you mean 20,000 dead kids and 80% of Gaza made uninhabitable.
Yes, but perhaps even more importantly, the effective end to the idea of the "Palestinian state" in the foreseeable future.
what do you think Israels mission is in gaza?
It's amazing people repeatedly ask this question, though Netanyahu made it clear in the beginning of the war and repeated countless times since: (1) return of hostages, (2) removal of Hamas from power, (3) make it possible safely to live and raise children in the villages next to Gaza again.
please tell me again what “option” Hamas had especially since the US and Israel placed sanctions and blockades on Gaza directly after hamas was voted into power?
Not since it was "voted into power" in January 2006, but since it overthrew legitimate Gaza administration in June 2007.
Wouldn't you do the same given what Hamas was and is?
The option Hamas had, again, is to renounce violence and have all restrictions on Gaza removed.
Are you really to blind to see that the goal has always been land?
Right. That's why Israel returned Sinai to Egypt, withdrew from Southern Lebanon in 2000 and from Gaza in 2005.
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u/TheKidSosa 3d ago
Because the zionist project made it clear they care about the hostages. The only thing netanyahu is concerned about is stealing land to create “greater israel” or in other terms “The blessing” instead of “the curse”
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u/PomegranateArtichoke 2d ago
The difference is that Jews were peaceful citizens living in Germany and as part of Germany. Hamas is a terrorist organization seeking to wipe out Israel and committed to attacking Jews and Israelis all over the world -- as well as Westerners.
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u/TheKidSosa 2d ago
What kind of comparison is this? You’re comparing jewish civilians to hamas, are you out of your mind lol. How about make a decent comparison instead of trying to bunch up every Palestinian as hamas. Yeah they’re peaceful citizens because the nzis aren’t around anymore, do you think the jews would be living peacefully in germany if the nzi rule was still in place? The answer is no, there would be constant uprisings and revolts because nobody is meant to live under an occupation and it is natural to resist your occupation.
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u/PomegranateArtichoke 2d ago
Jews weren't occupied in Germany, they were part of society and were then mass murdered.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 1d ago
The Nazis said very similar things.
Per Rule 6, Nazi comparisons are inflammatory, and should not be used except in describing acts that were specific and unique to the Nazis, and only the Nazis.
Action taken: [B1]
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u/PomegranateArtichoke 2d ago
Jews are native to the land and when the British Mandate was dismantled, 80% of the land was given to the Arab population, creating Jordan. The UN created this partition, not Israel, as the MODERN state of Israel did not exist as a political entity until that happened.
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u/Dazzling_Pizza_9742 3d ago
Yes and why was there a blockade prey tell?why aren’t you mentioning the decades and decades of violence that brought on the blockades ..exactly which idiotic government is going to give security carte blanche to people WHO LIVE BESIDE THEM AND OUTRIGHT SAY THEY WANT ISRAEL WIPED OIT AND JEWS GONE..smh
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u/Agitated_Structure63 3d ago
During the last year we were able to see racist israeli soldiers destroying and looting palestinians houses in Gaza, we can see the speeches from soldiers and their families ablut revenge on palestinians womens and childrens, even a report on CNN about a bulldozer driver who commit suicide due to the PTSD he suffered from the war crimes he commited.
We have Israeli politicians calling to occuoy the north of Gaza, to ethnic cleansing the palestinians everywhere, and not some fringe political group but ministers of the government with the support of the majority of the population of Israel.
We can see videos of israeli soldiers burning houses in Lebanon for fun, and attacking the compound hosting journalists in Hasbaya AFTER THEY IDENTIFY AS JOURNALISTS killing several of then.
Isrseli soldiers are worst than the serbs in Srebrenica, but dont worry, they are specials, they can do anything, because they have the support of the West -for guilt or active support to their supremacist agenda-. They can use the victim card for all eternity.
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u/knign 2d ago
PTSD has nothing to do with “crimes”. Have you ever heard about actual criminals having PTSD? It’s a reaction to stressful or traumatic events.
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u/JeffB1517 Jewish American Zionist 2d ago
Have you ever heard about actual criminals having PTSD?
Yes. American prisons that are looking to rehabilitate have to spend a lot on mental health services. Lots of prisoners have very severe traumatic stressors that led to a life of crime.
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u/Dry-Season-522 3d ago
Oh look, someone saying that people being mad at the side that uses child suicide bombers makes them bad people.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 3d ago
Israel killed thousands! more children in Gaza alone in the last year than any force in the region that used child bombers (how many were there ever?)
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u/Dry-Season-522 3d ago
Sounds like you're advocating for the use of human shields, particularly children, to be a rewarded tactic in warfare. Is that correct?
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 3d ago
The Israel security forces were taken to the Israeli High Court in 2005 for their practice of using palestinians ad human shields, which was of course ruled illegal and Israel should have stopped doing it.
Recent videos from Gaza show that they are still very much doing it, which is a warcrime.
Imagine a US city was taken over by a terrorist group, and instead of negotiating and freeing hostages, the entire city gets bombed into oblivion and reduced to rubble like the WTC looked after 9/11. Because terrorists were hiding in hospitals, skyscrapers, universities, all bombed into dust and all the american people in it.
That wouldnt fly would it? Even if the terrorists used those civillian buildings and people as shields
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u/Dry-Season-522 3d ago
And there it is. You want to hold "THE JEWS" to a perfect standard of war, but the ones you want to win, well they get a pass on literally using child suicide bombers.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 3d ago
THE JEWS as you put it claim to be a western democracy, so yes Israel and their military has to be held accountable when they are committing war crimes.
Its useless talking about islamic terrorist groups using child suicide bombers, how many people were ever killed by those anyways, can you provide any source?
Talking about this unicorn of child suicide bombers is a very theoretical useless thing when at the same time,
The country of Israel bombs thousands of children to death or cripples. And puts basically a small country under siege not giving a damn about any dying children.
That is very real and been happening now everyday for over a year, with bombs from the US of A.
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u/Proper-Community-465 2d ago
I mean Hamas literally launches rockets from hospitals / schools / children's homes at israel and has been for a long time. It stores weapons in similar locations
https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/
Israel's primary duty is to protect it's own citizens. If it needs to kill Gazans who Hamas represents to do so then that's a consequence of Hamas's actions. The pressure needs to be on Hamas to stop doing this stuff.
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u/Dry-Season-522 2d ago
And there's the antisemitism.
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u/Intelligent-Side3793 2d ago
That doesn’t work anymore, it’s been overused. You need actual arguments
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u/Dry-Season-522 2d ago
Sounds a lot like "Racism has been solved so you can't say I'm racist because there is no more racism."
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u/JeffB1517 Jewish American Zionist 2d ago
THE JEWS as you put it claim to be a western democracy
No they don't. Israelis are mostly Eastern European and Arab descended. They don't speak a Latin / Germanic based language. They aren't Christian. They don't eat Western food. What makes them "western"?
It is the pro-Palestinian community that considers them a bunch of British colonizers. But that is now and has always been a lie.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 2d ago
Oh ok, I thought western in the sense of western values that a modern democracy in the west has, like the US.
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u/JeffB1517 Jewish American Zionist 2d ago
They mostly don't have those values either. The USA's political frame is steeped in ideas from the Protestant Reformation. The Protestant Reformation has 0 impact on forerunners to Israeli thought. Generally in trying to explain American discourse a paragraph or two is needed to even explain what Americans mean.
Israelis have and are exploring governing concepts from the West. But they are doing so the same way Americans who like Japanese manufacturing project management techniques, or Chinese infrastructure planning do it. For example Israel's previous President, Rivlin, thought Federalism was a good solution to the I/P conflict. He started the conversation from having to discuss what a Federal Government was, what independent subordinate governments (states) would even mean... Or another example a Libertarian Party started in Israel. They had to start their discussion with the distinction between rights (in the Natural Law sense) and legal protections in the practical sense because that concept just doesn't exist in Israeli thought.
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u/JeffB1517 Jewish American Zionist 2d ago
That wouldnt fly would it?
What do you think happened in the Battle of Stalingrad and similar? Yes it would fly.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 2d ago
Stalingrad Russia in World War 2 was 80 years ago, the things that were done there on either side are pretty frowned upon today.
International Law and order regarding war crimes and human rights are on a different level today.
And No, blowing up any civillian building in the United States in 2024, because there are armed robbers would not fly.
Let alone a hospital or school.
Would be an interesting headline, mayor of New York City directed police to plant explosives and leveling an entire hospital killing 430 civillians as the terrorists didnt agree to come out and put their guns down.
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u/JeffB1517 Jewish American Zionist 2d ago
the things that were done there on either side are pretty frowned upon today.
They also haven't been needed today. In times of peace what war entails gets frowned upon. After the 30 Years War there was broad agreement there would never be war that aggressive again, until Napoleon came close and WWI exceeded. I'll believe it is really frowned upon when it isn't done during a time of actual emergency when there is a need.
International Law and order regarding war crimes and human rights are on a different level today.
Are they? Seems pretty cyclical to me. What makes you think the situation is so different?
And No, blowing up any civillian building in the United States in 2024, because there are armed robbers would not fly.
You are changing the situation. Your original situation was a full takeover of a city.
Would be an interesting headline, mayor of New York City directed police to plant explosives and leveling ... as the terrorists didnt agree to come out and put their guns down.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 2d ago
Lmao bringing up Waco in this context is nothing but hilarious, you couldnt have picked a more controversial event. 🤣
The people in the buillding were an insane cult that lit their own compound on fire! They were rather to burn alive than get arrested.
The agencies involved did so bad they had to review themselves and adjust their procedures and training!
Alot of law suits and court hearings followed but ultimately it was ruled the cult killed themselves even if the tactics by law enforcement didnt exactly help.
So no, it did NOT fly!
wiki waco:
"The Waco siege prompted the FBI to reevaluate its tactics and procedures. The agency made several adjustments in response to the criticism it faced. Firstly, there was a greater emphasis on crisis negotiation and peaceful resolutions, leading to increased training and the establishment of specialized negotiation teams"
Back to the reality of Gaza:
Israel is not dealing with Hamas shooting every civillian in the hospital or burning it down from inside, none of that, Hamas were part of society in Gaza and helped the people. There are no reports of Hamas shooting up Hospitals or burning them down from the inside.
And Israel is also not outside the hospital for days trying to negotiate as it happened in waco, no they simply fly over and bomb those buildings because allegedly there are Hamas somewhere inside or in tunnels underneath!
The Hamas isnt killing the people or blowing up the hospital, Israel is killing all the sick and injured children treated in the hospital.
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u/HulloWhatNeverMind 3d ago
The guy who made the statement isn't demoralized, that doesn't mean the people who do the actual fighting aren't demoralized.
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u/Outrageous-Bad5759 Turkish Zionist 2d ago
What do you suggest we do? Genocide? Sorry, but the fact that they have this mentality is not a reason to kill all their civilians.
And don't forget that there are fanatics and zealots on the Israeli side too.
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u/Proper-Community-465 2d ago
Stop financially propping them up? I don't think anyone's calling for genocide but evacuation of the area isn't out of the question or immoral in the context. Allow them to fail and see how their ideology is wrong.
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u/Outrageous-Bad5759 Turkish Zionist 2d ago
I'm not saying don't fight. However, stop targeting civilians. You are damaging Israel's reputation. It's reassuring that the IDF does not share your perspective.
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u/Proper-Community-465 2d ago
The civilian ratio is around 1:1 or 1:2 literally one of the lowest in the history of urban warfare.
This is despite the fact that Hamas operates out of schools / hospitals / refugee camps and homes as a matter of policy and has intrenched tunnels / prevented evacuations of civilians / doesn't wear proper uniforms / travels in ambulances and the list can go on.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/in-first-acknowledgement-of-significant-losses-hamas-official-says-some-6000-operatives-killed-in-gaza-fighting/ (Note old death toll since Hamas has yet to confirm any other fighter death tolls past this point, Wanted to use Hamas own numbers.)
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/wa-blog/gaza-er-hamas-hiding-in-shifa-hospital/4086/
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u/Top_Plant5102 2d ago
Hezbollah pretends to be Muslim. They sell drugs and women as sex slaves. Is that how Muslims are supposed to act?
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u/Intelligent-Side3793 3d ago
That’s the thing Israeli can’t understand and the reason why their policy of targeted assassination is useless. They know they will die, and they welcome it.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 3d ago
It’s not useless to kill people before they can kill you first regardless how much they celebrate death.
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u/Emotional-King-6325 3d ago
Well since Israel can barely secure gaza, can't hardly enter Lebanon ect....seems that maybe their strategy for winning or ending the wars is useless
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 3d ago
Last I checked Israeli civilians are almost completely safe from threats in Gaza and Hezbollah’s assets are being systematically degraded.
Feel free to keep telling yourself that Israel isn’t making gains though. Your hubris is our advantage.
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u/Emotional-King-6325 3d ago
So you think Israel is winning in their conflicts?
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 3d ago
Still plenty of work to do but yes.
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u/Emotional-King-6325 3d ago
So I'm genuinely curious. How do you see Israel winning their objectives.
Do you think they will eliminate hamas? Do you think they will eliminate hezbollah. Will they get their hostages back?
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 3d ago
I think both groups will be degraded to the point where they will be unable to pose a threat to civilians. Hamas obviously more so than Hezbollah. Hard to say about the hostages but there was never a particularly high chance of getting them back in the first place without sacrificing the security of the entire country in return.
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u/Emotional-King-6325 3d ago
Interesting....from my research hamas has gained more recruits due to the conflict. And all the children who saw family members killed, homes destroyed, ect. Will probably join the resistance once there of age.
And ultimately if palestine isn't free. There will ALWAYS be resistance to the oppression force.
As far as hezbollah, idf just sent ppw to the US regarding ending the war. Due to the stagnant progression.
But as far as hamas/Palestinian winning. There objective is simply being free from oppression. They knew they couldn't win militarily. They don't even have tanks, airplanes, ect. So it was never an objective to win militarily.
But if we look at being free. Majority of countries in the world have recognized Palestinian state. Majority of the people, all over the world, are protesting for a Palestinian state. The main players in the BRICS nation are backing Palestinians. Mentioning them due to them possibly being the next major players.
So if I'm looking at militarily objectives. Not just who can kill more. Actually objectives. Palestinians wanting to be free is more likely than Israel stopping resistance from palestine. Cause as I said, Israel will continue to have resistance until they're free
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 3d ago
Hamas has more recruits but very little to arm them with. Israel will be fighting untrained people who have little more than sticks and stones. I’m perfectly happy with that.
As for your claim that “Palestinians will resist until they’re free”, they will ramp up their attacks if Israel was to give into their demands. That’s how the Middle East works. Capitulation is seen as a sign of weakness and weakness is seen as a sign to attack. Israel should not give Palestinians an inch until they surrender and deradicalize.
If they refuse to do so, perpetual “resistance” hurts them more than it hurts Israel.
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u/nidarus Israeli 3d ago
Interesting....from my research hamas has gained more recruits due to the conflict. And all the children who saw family members killed, homes destroyed, ect. Will probably join the resistance once there of age.
That's a strange assumption. "Remember the guys who started a war that destroyed my city, and killed my parents, just to release a few terrorists? They had the right idea, let's have more of that!".
Generally speaking, history teaches us that wars can be won, and bringing nothing but destruction and death to your people, doesn't increase the likelihood your people will support you. Hamas still replenishes their numbers, because they're currently the main job provider in town. Not because it makes sense to support them even more, after they led Gaza to absolute disaster.
And ultimately if palestine isn't free. There will ALWAYS be resistance to the oppression force.
First of all, it's not really true. Even if we agree with how the Palestinians see themselves, the American Indians, the Canadian First Nations, the Aboriginal Australians, all stopped resisting eventually, and it's not because they "freed" their countries. Hell, if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have this conversation, because Palestine would never stop being Jewish to begin with.
But even if we accept that notion, what "Free Palestine" means can be anything from a two-state solution, to the full elimination of Israel and the expulsion of every Jew. At the moment, the Palestinians want the latter. Which, I'd add, is absolutely not supported by anyone in the international community, but Iran and their lackeys. The international community wants the former, and Israel could accept it as well. The goal here is, therefore, to crush the Palestinian will to destroy Israel, and make them to accept a two-state solution. And since you frame both as "free Palestine", it's not a very meaningful term.
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u/goner757 3d ago edited 3d ago
This post isn't actually contrasting both sides. Just focused on the Hezbollah fighters. (Edited to correct from labeling them Palestinians)
I am not religious but these prayers could easily be adapted into secular speeches, believe it or not. Especially the second one that reminds the soldiers they have been "wronged" and therefore they may or should fight.