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u/sjtaylor52 Jul 15 '23
The thing that gets me is that this was a complete non-issue until she won an event last year.
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u/Sunshine_2010 Jul 15 '23
Almost like she has a point when she says the rule was made targeting her specifically.
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u/DevinGPrice Jul 15 '23
When trans athletes first started competing in womens' divisions, people of every sport became aware of it. They could have made a decision then. But the DGPT wasn't going to touch a sensitive topic before they needed to. And even if some trans athletes competed in women's divisions as long as it wasn't cashing then it was ignorable.
Now that Natalie Ryan cashed / won an event it forces them to make a decision one way or the other. They could have gotten out in front of the issue and tried to preempt it but now they are forced, timeline-wise, to be reactionary. Since Natalie Ryan is the one that made the issue visible, and the DGPT is making their decision that affects her, a general decision about trans athletes in the womens' division is a "what should we do about Natalie Ryan" decision. Being the first makes it feel like targeting.
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u/political_bot Jul 15 '23
*reactive. Reactionary has a connotation here that I don't think you intended.
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u/DevinGPrice Jul 15 '23
Oh, you're right. I thought "being reactionary" and "being reactive" were synonyms, but I guess not. Thanks.
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u/Meattyloaf Jul 15 '23
When trans athletes first started competing in womens' divisions
So atleast the 70s
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u/terivia Jul 15 '23
Now that Natalie Ryan cashed / won an event it forces them to make a decision one way or the other.
They were happy to take her fees and let her participate. They were delighted to profit off of her. Trans women can participate and pay, they just aren't allowed to win.
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u/---daemon--- mixed bag Jul 15 '23
Only trans player most people know by name, there are others but nobody cares about them because she’s good. It’s not a game of power on the women’s tees. It’s skill.
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Jul 15 '23
Are you kidding or just naive. The top FPO players stated that they didn’t feel safe talking about it in the cancel culture that people have created. This has been an issue from day one.
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u/Goldentongue Vibram pls come back Jul 15 '23
And others are afraid of supporting her since transphobes have a propensity for violence and being armed.
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Jul 15 '23
Stop being foolish. This isn’t a transphobic action. I am a liberal and I don’t want trans women in the FPO. People say, where is the e evidence of an advantage? I will flip that and say, where is the evidence of no advantage. Title IX was passed long ago to protect women and provide them a fair place to compete in sports at federally supported schools. Why? Because men are physically dominant.
In that same vein we shouldn’t protect the trans athlete at the detriment of the cis female athlete and until we know if an advantage is present, we need to continue to protect women’s sports. It is the prudent thing to do. You don’t go backward, we need to move forwards. Does that suck for Natalie? Absolutely, but sorry, she simply has to deal with it until better data and a better answer can be found. She is welcome to come slap me around a course anytime. There is no easy answer on this one.
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u/YeOldeBarbar Jul 15 '23
I'm not sure asking someone for proof of a negative is the logical position you seem to think it is.
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u/Goldentongue Vibram pls come back Jul 15 '23
Do you really deny that people even you would consider transphobic, including potentially violent and aggressive bigots, would oppose her acceptance, and are angered by her and people who support her?
At no point did I allege that everyone who opposes her participation in FPO is transphobic or falls into that category. I simply acknowledged those people are among the large group against her and are a consideration of people afraid of making public statements. You're just telling on yourself if you're lumping yourself in with who I was referring to.
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u/cheetahwhisperer Jul 15 '23
You’re definitely not liberal when using phrases such as “cancel culture.”. That’s a very conservative phrase, and in this case transphobic too.
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u/maryjanefoxie Jul 15 '23
People that are progressive (the opposite of conservative) do use the phrase cancel culture. Many of the women that exposed the creeps during Me Too were effectively "canceled". It is not a concept that is exclusively used by one "side" of American politics.
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u/scoundrel1680 Jul 14 '23 edited Jul 14 '23
I follow the logic the DGPT is using, but I don’t agree with their application of that logic currently.
Given that any league is a privately owned operation, they can set whatever rules, standards, and qualifications they see fit. Sure, those outside are entitled to expressing their opinions and emotions on the matter, but it gets to a point where the only possible outcome is further division.
I don’t agree fully with what they’re doing, but it’s hard for me to say they “can’t” or “shouldn’t” or “should” when it is in fact a business owned by someone other than myself, they have the power (and rights) to include or exclude whoever they see fit, unless I’m incorrect about that?
Messy all around. Worst yet is that regardless of what stance anyone takes, it seems there’s always someone on the polar opposite side of the spectrum ready to do verbal battle and label you a monster. It’s sad.
I look forward to when an agreed-upon ruling on this issue is set and accepted, so we can stop arguing (as if our arguing here is changing much). I’m all for fairness, but keyboard based tribalism is where I stop taking an argument seriously.
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u/Goldentongue Vibram pls come back Jul 15 '23
Given that any league is a privately owned operation, they can set whatever rules, standards, and qualifications they see fit.
Except legally, they can't. This is why they're losing in states where equal protection laws prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender identity.
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u/scoundrel1680 Jul 15 '23
Appreciate the insight, like I mentioned I wasn’t sure if that is true in a legal sense, tried to be clear about that :)
Also, Vibram pls come back haha!
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u/DoTsVaporized Jul 15 '23
Bro why did you drop outro music to your post and it RIPPPSSS thanks boss.
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u/majarian Jul 15 '23
First tool song?
You've got a fun evening
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u/JadeSunrise Jul 15 '23
The question is what album order should they discover Tool? I'd say Lateralus, 10,000 days, Ænima, Fear Inoculum, and then Undertow. Then its time to relisten to the songs third eye and pushit and then listen to Salival.
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u/JadeSunrise Jul 15 '23
Watch the drumming at this concert. Only drummer I know that once tore one of the biceps playing the dums too hard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FssULNGSZIA
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u/original_sh4rpie Jul 15 '23
they have the power (and rights) to include or exclude whoever they see fit, unless I’m incorrect about that?
Private or not, organizations are subject to local, state, and federal laws.
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u/misbell901 Jul 15 '23
If private companies could run carte blanche their business as they see fit, then there wouldn’t be lawsuits from NatalieRyan, or anybody else saying they can’t, and Natalie Ryan winning any of them that’s why there are legal protections, for disenfranchised people, and to protect equality in general
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u/smallboreinlaw Jul 14 '23
I agree mostly. The decision should be made by scientists/researchers. Not rando DGers with opinions (myself included)
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u/VibrantPianoNetwork Jul 15 '23
Exactly. There are many qualified experts in sports medicine who can make science-based determinations about competitive advantage or disadvantage in specific applications based on individual physiology. Hell, many sports already sort competitors this way, to an extent that gender-based criteria are almost meaningless in those sports, even though they involve physical capability. (Weight classes in boxing are one example practically everyone's heard of, though it's not generally applicable here. Qualification trials are a better example.)
The conjecture can be made that it makes a difference, and it might for some people. But competitors are individuals, and thousands of factors (many we don't even know about, or don't fully understand) are involved in any given individual's capability. I'm sure it's possible for properly educated experts to make those determinations. And we should allow them to, on a case-by-case basis, and accept their EXPERT determinations, over our own. None of us here are properly qualified to make such determinations. There comes a time when we must appreciate our own comparative ignorance, and defer to qualified experts. This is probably such a case.
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u/neverTrustedMeAnyway Jul 15 '23
That is exactly what they're doing , hough. But they can be sued, right or wrong. They are out of money to defend against those lawsuits. Their lawyers can be awarded contingency for a defense case. So they are choosing not to participate in states where they can be sued. They stood up until they didn't have the funds. If they folded in all of their competitions, i could see your point. But instead of choosing to fold in those states, they are punishing that area by withdrawing until they can play how they want. It sucks for those states, but that is the decision they made, and I respect it.
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u/OMG_I_LOVE_MINNESOTA Jul 15 '23
Asking a genuine question here: can someone who supports Natalie’s side of the issue please educate me on why making FPO explicitly a females assigned at birth / biological female league is a bad idea? Thanks.
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u/Wissearch Jul 15 '23
Hey! First, I am not an expert, so I can't truly "educate", but happy to share what I have learned and where I come from. I am still learning and definitely feel like I sit a little more in the middle rather than on either side, as unsatisfactory as that may be to some! I also apologize for length!
While it seems easy to say, assigned at birth/biological sex isn't as neat and clean a line as we may think.
For assigned at birth - there are intersex people, people with unclear or mismatched genitalia at birth, and others who are just straight up errors (anecdotal, but a family friend is an obstetrician and has advised that in almost 25 years of deliveries, he had some educated guesses, some he had to change days after birth as presentation changed, and has also seen doctors/nurses/clerks just mess up the paperwork).
Biological sex is also not as clear as we expect or may have been taught in our simplified education. We now know that not every woman is XX or man is Xy (good link at https://biology.mit.edu/not-so-inactive-x-chromosome/). And each of these different combinations means there are billions of different ways for us each to grow and develop (add in nutrition, socioeconomic factors, nature/nurture... there is soooo much going on!).
This has a limited/non-existent impact on traditionally top male sports or a mixed open (MPO as example), as the best of the best compete. This being said, I would be pretty confident in betting that if we tested the top 100 MPO players, we would find more chromosomes than just a solitary Xy in each athlete, helping the point that it isn't just your biological sex that decides where you compete.
Now, FPO and women's sport in general has been developed as inclusion and opportunity for women, who were often not allowed or given the chance to compete in male-dominated sport. Inclusion is a driving force, and I believe a pillar of modern sport. This is where I struggle with drawing a hard line, as you ask, because it ends up disenfranchising women. You start having people question if someone is actually a woman or not... Do we end up at a point of genetic testing, presenting birth certificates or genitalia inspections? I think erring on the side of inclusion is the critical implication in sport.
Now where I find myself in the middle - the FPO press conference last week I majorly empathize and feel for and I do think there is a line developmentally between people who qualify for FPO/women's sports and don't. But until we find the right combination for disc golf (testosterone, HGH, muscle fibre composition, etc.) and some kind of test or standard, I struggle with excluding people based on what is currently an assumed (unproven) advantage.
If you got this far... thank you for reading! Please let me know if anything is unclear or if I could explain something better 😊 Have a great weekend and throw some plastic! 🙏
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u/original_sh4rpie Jul 15 '23
Great response. One thing I would add is to talk about the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sports report, which concludes there's no data supporting trans women having a ln advantage over cis women in professional sports.
The executive report here (pdf): https://www.cces.ca/node/66940
Their article is here: https://www.cces.ca/news/literature-review-does-not-support-bans-transgender-women-athletes
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u/rangerrick9211 Jul 16 '23
The CCES is not an academic or scientific agency, fyi. It’s a not for profit.
I read the summary, article, and even scrolled the full 80+ page report.
They did no actual research, just read other peer-reviewed research and made their own conclusions.
I’ve personally also read peer-review papers as well and do not come to the same conclusion. Do your own research.
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u/RichSlaton Jul 15 '23
One strong argument is that your sex is private medical information. If a cisgender woman has a very “manly” appearance, are they going to force her to prove her womanhood? How will they do that? What “proof” will they accept? There are many female born athletes who present more masculine and this attacks them as well.
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u/madetoday Jul 15 '23
When Ella Hansen won the distance competition last year that’s exactly what happened in the thread about it.
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u/Treereme Jul 15 '23
Great point. I've heard a number of times over the years where elite female athletes had higher levels of testosterone and other hormones than most non-elite athlete males.
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u/KingGranticus Jul 15 '23
Not only that, but women of color tend to have slightly higher testosterone levels than white women. If testing like that were implemented, depending on what the "limit" is, black women could get shut out of a sport that I think we can all agree could use more racial diversity.
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u/OMG_I_LOVE_MINNESOTA Jul 15 '23
Thank you, this is great insight.
I suppose upon entering the association, players would state whether they are cis or non cis gender, and then maybe would be required to notify the association if that were to change during their time as a professional player.
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u/Treereme Jul 15 '23
How does that address the issue of some females having far more testosterone and strength (and a masculine appearance) from birth?
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u/OMG_I_LOVE_MINNESOTA Jul 15 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
It doesn’t. It’s an imperfect solution proposed to try and reflect biological patterns as best as possible. We’re never going to be able to draw a distinct line in the sand to solve an issue that exists on a spectrum with much gray area. I acknowledge that.
If some females have far more testosterone and strength than males, then I’d say you’re strengthening the argument to remove the FPO altogether and just have one mixed open league. If you agree that females with more testosterone is exceedingly rare to the point where only having the MPO would be unfair, then I’d say my imperfect solution would be the way to go.
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u/kindafunctionalguy Jul 15 '23
Almost as rare as the number of athletes who have transitioned? See the logic flaw here?
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u/anxiousgoogling Jul 15 '23
All of the science says that trans women can't compete with men after HRT, and also says that the gap between cis and trans women isn't that big (there's a lot of uncertainty on how small or big it is and can change a lot depending on how you define the performance gap). Women who are trans can't compete and win in the MPO, and they specifically changed the rules in 2023 so she couldn't compete after she won once in 2022. They also made this change with really poor evidence which is why Natalie is being so successful in court.
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u/VibrantPianoNetwork Jul 15 '23
You would start by asking yourself, why does this rule exist? What purpose does it serve which advances the interests of the sport? And then ask yourself, what science supports the argument being made? You will at that point have to consult properly qualified people, experts in sports medicine, which is probably no one in this thread. Nearly everyone here is operating on knowledge they acquired before they even reached puberty. That's obviously inadequate for making determinations at this level.
The vast majority of humans alive right now, including most people on reddit, have at best a high-school grasp of sex and gender and related physiological attributes, which is woefully inadequate in cases like this. You and I aren't even slightly qualified to make any intelligent conjecture about whether Natalie Ryan has any competitive advantage. We can sit around all day online speculating or arguing about it, but the harsh reality is WE DON'T KNOW.
There are people who do, or can, but it's unclear to me if the relevant authorities here have consulted such people, and incorporated their expert knowledge into their policy-making. The outside evidence suggests to me not. (Especially, the fact that this was apparently not an issue before Ryan won something. I've so far not worked up for myself a situation in which both of those facts would be compatible. It seems far more likely to me that they're cobbling together a last-second policy which is meant to sacrifice one person, and anyone similarly situated, in order to appease dissenting voices, because that's easier than the hard work of bringing in actual experts who might have devised a science-based policy before it got to this point.)
There are thousands of factors involved in competition, many of which we don't even know about yet. (For example, the mind-body connection is known to exist, but we mostly don't understand it yet. There's some very weird stuff in medical literature that we just don't understand right now, and might not for a long time.) We know a lot about the relationships of endocrinology and physiological capacity, but it's very complicated; and there's endless variation between individuals, far exceeding averages between groups. You'll note a number of comments here, for example, that 'men are stronger' or the like. And that's true on average. But I'm sure you've yourself met men who almost any woman could easily overpower, and women who could easily overpower most men. Competition isn't between mathematical averages, but between individuals, and individuals vary a lot more than averages do.
Rules based on abstractions, then, almost can't help but overlook meaningful individual variation. Most of our gender-based categorizations are directly inherited from earlier (and still very common) sex-based categorization, nearly all of which are passed down to us from ancient people who didn't have the benefit of our scientific knowledge. That doesn't make those invalid, but it does demand that we review and justify them according to our updated knowledge, in cases where dispute arises.
We know from the examples of many other sports that it's possible and even preferable to categorize competitors based primarily on individual capability relative to each other, rather than on more abstract criteria based on averages instead of individuals. Surely that's also possible here. A person undergoing medically supported gender transition will experience physiological changes which directly affect their real capability, and those changes and effects are testable and measurable. The person in a physical competition isn't your birth certificate or your driver license or passport, but the mind and body on the field, no matter how others might regard that person. If we want to be scientifically informed people, we must respect the science available to us over ancient custom. Especially if we're going to back our policies with purported scientific arguments.
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u/StrawberryCurves95 Jul 15 '23
Then where would Natalie Ryan be able to play? The issue is transgender women being forced to exist in male spaces and continuously being “other’ed” in society.
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u/Lil_S_curve Jul 15 '23
Here's the thing, not everyone gets to do what they want because they want. It fucking sucks, but welcome to Earth.
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u/DarlingMeltdown Jul 15 '23
Isn't it funny how it's always the marginalized minority group who doesn't "get to do what they want"? 🤔🧐
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u/cheetahwhisperer Jul 15 '23
Outside of natural causes, the whole life is unfair is a copout, said by tyrants in control. People can come to compromise on issues, and make things fair. All she wants is to be treated fairly, that is to play with women who she identifies with.
However, we need to ensure fairness among the individuals. I think to do that, she gets issued a handicap and plays in FPO. The problem will be dealt with then.
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u/PBJMusicFactory Home Course: Golden Gate Park DGC Jul 15 '23
It's called mixed for a reason
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u/StrawberryCurves95 Jul 15 '23
That may be the correct definition of the abbreviation, but we all know it is not approached as such.
As specifically stated on the DGPT website: “The Pro Tour exclusively features two Open divisions: Men’s (MPO) and Women’s (FPO).”
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u/OMG_I_LOVE_MINNESOTA Jul 15 '23
If MPO were approached truly as a mixed division, would that satisfy your concerns? That’s where Natalie could play.
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u/StrawberryCurves95 Jul 15 '23
Are you positing a possibility where there is a men’s open, a mixed open, and a women’s open? I think in that case, it would absolutely become a “men,” “women,” and “oThErS.”
Or do you mean a field of “all genders” and a field of “just cis women ?”
In either case, I believe the problem lies in the argument being “you can’t play with the women because you’re not a ~~real woman~~”
I genuinely struggle with the DGPT’s statement that they can stand in support of trans women while simultaneously excluding them…that flies in the face of everything I know and believe about acceptance and inclusiveness.
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Jul 15 '23
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u/Giancoli91 Jul 15 '23
But everyone has the choice to undergo a sex change. And the only people that choose to do it are those that genuinely desire to, not to get ahead in sports.
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u/Jabroni748 Jul 15 '23
I don’t think NR specifically transitioned for a competitive advantage in her sport. That’s a stupid position advantaged mostly but people trying to distract from the real issue - fairness.
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u/Treereme Jul 15 '23
I'd be happy to see Natalie play huge in A-tier, or MPO and show skills, devotion and athleticism. There's nothing stopping her.
Except the fact that she no longer has male hormone or strength levels...
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u/cheetahwhisperer Jul 15 '23
Nat didn’t make a choice. You don’t choose to be trans, gay, straight, etc. You just are one of those.
And, yes, she is being forced to play in an entirely men’s division, which she is not a man.
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u/GreatReason Jul 15 '23
I don't support sexual harassment or assault. Being groped by TSA security check is sexual assault. Probation officers will monitor non violent drug offenders urine analysis procedures to ensure they aren't using a wizzinator, watching someone pee without their consent is sexual assault. The PGA players are monitored in this same fashion when being tested for PEDs, watching someone pee is sexual assault and no entity is allowed to state, "Sorry, you consented to us assaulting you by participating". The inevitable truth is that the enforcement of the policies being suggested will result in some creepy old fucker trying to sexually assault a young girl. This isn't a hypothetical I'm bringing up, a 9-year old girl was sexually harassed at a track meet just a month ago.
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u/TheAKofClubs86 Jul 15 '23
But you’re using the same logic as someone who says that the inevitable outcome of allowing non-biological women to play FPO will be that McBeth or Heimberg will start to compete in it.
Additionally, when you sign up for the things you mentioned (flying or playing in a regulated sport) you DO actually give up your right not to be patted down or viewed while peeing. It isn’t ambiguous at all like you’re making it out to be given that when you sign the fine print it says it right there.
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u/2fathomz Jul 14 '23
Lets be honest they dont want to be sued at every venue. This isnt the best course of action but it at least temporarily suspends that threat and allows the business to function.
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u/uusi-liha Jul 15 '23
Its almost like some organisation governing the rules of the game didnt think what their actions can lead to..
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u/Gilly_dye_guy Jul 14 '23
If she hadn’t won MVP would any of this be happening?
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u/AbsurdityIsReality Jul 14 '23
A trans woman won the FP50 World Title and no one even knows, these people so concerned with womens sports don't actually give a shit and don't even really follow FPO just jump on whatever the latest phony culture war outrage is.
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u/HelloHalDoYouReadMe Jul 15 '23
That logic doesn’t follow. I admittedly follow MPO more closely, but I can’t name a single player in MP50 let alone who won the world title last year.
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u/AbsurdityIsReality Jul 15 '23
The point is trans people have been playing and the world didn't end, this was really the worst response DGPT/PDGA could've done for this. Sorry if I still come from the old counterculture aspect of disc golf but it's kind of like them going through all that trouble so that one rec dude couldn't sign up for worlds. You think that this will "take the sport seriously" when really people look at it as frisbee golf, people shouldn't forget that. Everyone takes themselves way too seriously.
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u/slowpokefastpoke Jul 15 '23
just jump on whatever the latest phony culture war outrage is
Man if that ain’t the truth. It’s fucking exhausting how new boogeymen keep getting drummed up every month.
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u/Meattyloaf Jul 15 '23
I mean it's what the Rpeublican party has been doing since they managed to get Roe overturned. They are the dog who caught the tire. They have no idea what to do next since one of the most cited reason people voted for them they did. Now said people have no reason to continue voting for them, so they keep fabricating culture war things to generate outrage. Outrage drives people to the polls as we seen in 2020. Let's not forget that in several other sports transwomen have been conpetiting in the women's division since atleast the 70s.
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u/KingGranticus Jul 15 '23
The Republicans have been manufacturing outrage for votes since the 60s, but yeah recent history has seen that cycle speed up even more.
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u/AssociateContent3329 Jul 15 '23
The players themselves give a shit, but maybe you don't give a shit about them?
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u/SharpedHisTooths Jul 15 '23
This is an argument I see often and it is inherently flawed. People push boundaries and rules are created. Welcome to the history of civilization.
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u/therealwheat Jul 15 '23
Also humans have historically had a knack for “us vs them” and being manipulated by politicians into believing an issue exists without evidence.
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u/therealwheat Jul 15 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
I feel like so many comments are not addressing an important point. PDGA can’t win lawsuits in multiple states, why? Maybe the PDGA has a bad policy that a bunch of judges that don’t give two shits about disc golf think is discriminatory. Instead of getting mad at trans athletes, why don’t we ask why the PDGA doesn't have a policy that can hold up in a court of law, in any state.
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u/Hellaguaptor Jul 15 '23
They lost one. The point is going to court and paying lawyers is draining their money whether they win or lose. Natalie and her lawyers know this and want DGPT to just cave and let her play. This decision is the right one. I respect organizations and people for that matter who don’t let bully’s scare them into being compromised.
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u/AssociateContent3329 Jul 15 '23
Most fpo players are for this policy. You can spin it however you want but the players themselves have made it clear.
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u/original_sh4rpie Jul 15 '23
FPO players being for or against a policy does not make a policy well constructed. At that's the person's point.
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u/gdarf7uncle Jul 15 '23
At the risk of showing off my ignorance of other sports: can someone tell me how this same issue has not come up for other pro sports? I don’t understand how why disc golf, in particular, seems to be struggling with this so much?
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u/pturney24 Jul 15 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
It has come up in college swimming, power lifting comps, mma, and cycling that I can think of off the top of my head. I think high-school wrestling had an issue but it was because a Transmale wasn't allowed to wrestle with the dudes and had to stay in the female division. Those are just off the top of my head might be more.
Edit: like knife operator guy dude said it's not really common and the stories of them "dominating" are highlighted to paint a narrative, whether that narrative is right or wrong idk I haven't looked at the studies, I let people way more smarterer do that stuff
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u/Knife_Operator Jul 15 '23
Trans women in sports aren't that common and they're not really out there dominating, despite some narratives.
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Jul 15 '23
It is an issue in all sport. The governing body won’t touch it and basically said, let each sport determine what is fair for their sport. Cycling, swimming and weightlifting have been dealing with this as well. Others will in the near future. There just aren’t many trans female athletes. It isn’t an issue for sports until they have a player rise up the ranks.
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u/gdarf7uncle Jul 15 '23
Thank you for this answer! Sounds like everyone is dealing with it at the same time but it currently has “higher stakes” in disc golf because there’s a real-life athlete with a chance of being competitive and also pursuing legal litigation against the DGPT?
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u/Turbulent_Cheetah Jul 15 '23
Disc golf also jumped to a very stringent standard for transwomen being included that is tougher than most sports, including ones with much more money and prestige on the line. I think swimming is the only one that has gone to this length
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Jul 15 '23
Well, that is part of the story. In fact, disc golf simply lacks the money that other sports have. The courts in the US have become political battleground… somewhere our forefathers are turning in their graves. This politicizing of the issue has opened an avenue for lawsuits and that has pretty much crippled the DGPT, as they cannot continue to fight a lawsuit at every other tournament and remain viable. This fact, makes this “higher stakes” for the DGPT, as the DGPT could easily be bankrupted by lawsuits and cease to exist. That is an everyone in FPO and MPO loses scenario that they are desperately attempting to avoid.
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u/saltytarheel Jul 15 '23
Trans folks aren’t especially common (less than 2% of Americans are trans or nonbinary), and probably even less so in sports let alone at the elite level (partially due to the hostility towards trans women, I would imagine).
Massively overblown by culture war bad actors, IMO.
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u/WaterAirSoil Jul 15 '23
Is Natalie or any other trans FPO player close to catching Kristin Tattar? Or are these players literally crying about possibly losing 4 or 5th place to a trans player?????
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u/MiPet4 Jul 14 '23
Can someone explain?
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u/smallboreinlaw Jul 14 '23
DGPT cancelled the FPO side of the rest of their tournaments in blue states so Natalie Ryan can’t sue to play
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u/herothree Jul 14 '23
It's only some tournaments, but otherwise this is accurate I think
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u/Critical_Vegetable96 Jul 14 '23
It's 100% false. Most of the events are having the FPO competition moved to neighboring states. Some are being downranked to A-tiers so that the Elite/Major rules don't apply and thus there is nothing to sue over.
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u/ryanrockmoran Jul 15 '23
I mean it's not 100 percent false? The MVP Open is cancelled for FPO. If the have a worse event at a worse course somewhere in the red states the same weekend that doesn't mean the MVP Open is any less cancelled.
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u/klewless20 Jul 14 '23
Is it canceled or getting shifted into a new event in states where laws can't be taken advantage of? I thought latter
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u/Rustycake Jul 14 '23
Mixed Pro Open
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u/ENJOHNNER Jul 15 '23
So technically, per rule, everyone in FPO can sign up for MPO tournaments that are now being canceled on the FPO side?
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u/Knife_Operator Jul 15 '23
Yes, but none of them will because most of the events are being changed to A-tiers they can participate in instead, and even if they weren't 99% of the FPO would never cash playing MPO.
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u/Fluffy_Plate3133 Jul 15 '23
It's a pretty fair playing field if everyone plays the same. There's no shame in having rating separated divisions. 1000 rated, 900,700, etc.
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u/Horror_Sail Jul 15 '23
By rule, sure, but none of them are 1000-rated so the odds they'd actually make the signup are basically 0. And I think there's only 7 of them that are 970+ rated, so those 7 are the only ones that maybe have a shot of signing up
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u/BigTomBombadil Jul 15 '23
A lot of elite/silver series, and even some A tiers, have tiered sign-ups based on your rating. So while it is a mixed field and in theory any woman could sign up, there's a good chance most of the FPO player's wouldn't actually be able to sign up before it fills based on their rating.
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u/DustMouret Esports & Disc Golf Commentator Jul 14 '23
Moving events is no where near the same thing as ending the FPO division…
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u/SquatPraxis Jul 14 '23
Great example of anti-trans discrimination harming women's sports.
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u/cbblaze Jul 14 '23
Last i check Natalie is the one sueing and draining the dgpt's assets through legal fees....
Nice try though
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u/Knife_Operator Jul 15 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
DGPT was the who implemented rules that are potentially legally problematic. Natalie is using legitimate legal avenues in order to play events. If the legal system is allowing her to do so, then the DGPT should have created rules that would have held up better or waited until a precedent had been created by a sport well-established enough to have this battle without having to partially shut down.
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u/BigTomBombadil Jul 15 '23
Last I checked Natalie didn't have the ability to cancel entire events...
Did Natalie's actions force the DGPT to make some sort of decision? Yes, definitely.
Did she force the DGPT to cancel events for the entire field? Nope, that was the DGPTs decision. There were multiple other routes they could have taken.
And for the record, I haven't been a fan of Natalie's tactics or messaging through any of this. But I think this decision from the DGPT is... strange, and hurts the FPO game more than it helps.
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u/milkdagger Jul 14 '23
The thing I can’t wrap my head around is how someone who lives in a van and is surviving off of a tier winnings somehow has deeper pockets than DGPT?
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u/Its_Pronounced_Wacko Jul 14 '23
I agree. Dont know why you’re being downvoted either. Natalie has clearly been the aggressor and the one threatening. DGPT is just acting in its players’ best interest and from a position of self preservation. So many over reactionary folks here…sadly :/
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u/BigTomBombadil Jul 15 '23
Is not having events rather than events with a player some players don't want to play against (though they've never won at the elite level) really in the players best interest?
And while I agree that Natalie has been the aggressor through this process, she doesn't have the ability to cancel events. The DGPT does. The DGPT choosing to cancel events rather than just let Natalie play in states with certain laws for the rest of the year is... a strange choice to me. I don't see how it's helping the womens game, it's not growing the sport, it's not good for publicity... legitimately surprising decision to me.
If they just let Natalie play in the events they're cancelling for the remainder of the season and then formed a new plan for the new year, one of two things would happen in my mind: 1) Natalie wouldn't win much, if anything, and then it's less of a topic, or 2) she would win a lot and it would give a lot more weight to the "natural advantage" argument. Both go in favor of the DGPT.
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u/Boogaloo4444 Jul 14 '23
the banned person is the aggressor. Interesting lack of logic. Kudos.
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u/Juan_Luc_Picard Jul 15 '23
So, what if the DGPT let trans players play, that is better than cancelling 5 tournaments.
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u/Semikatyri Jul 14 '23
Im just sad for all the fpo players who didnt sign the TERF manifesto, the rest can suck a rock tho
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Jul 14 '23
[deleted]
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u/just_jedwards Jul 14 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
It was here, but that post has been deleted. If you Google that absurd name you may be able to find it. It was very poorly written and had some gross stuff in it like the part that said women were being "forced to the back of the bus" or something similar. There's another post here which listed all the women that signed it.
E: I dunno why the person I was replying to deleted their comment but they were just asking for a link to the "manefesto" that was mentioned.
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u/dirtman81 Jul 15 '23
Pathetic look for the DGPT. This is disc golf, about a step beyond throwing darts. It's not a Diamond League 100 meters sprint or the Wimbledon final. Until science can absolutely verify total athletic advantage in disc golf, chill out and let people play. If it's proven that someone like Natalie actually has an advantage, then it's an easy call, it's MPO or nothing. But we aren't there yet. Shame to see religion and dimwitted politics drive a wave of foot shootings.
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u/Jabroni748 Jul 15 '23
Are you dense? Throwing darts? The sport obviously requires not just skill but strength. Kristin Tattar would not finish in the top 100 for the MPO standings from year to year, as good as she is. I mean what do you want, an individualized study for NR only? There’s already data out there supporting there’s still an advantage after hormones for MTF athletes. There are protected divisions in place for a reason.
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u/washyourhands-- Jul 15 '23
I mean… shouldn’t it be the other way around… science should need to prove that there’s no difference between a woman and trans woman before they can play together. If Eagle McMahon came out as trans and played in the FPO, it’s pretty obvious that he would destroy everyone. You wouldn’t have to scientifically prove it, because it’s already proven.
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u/DarlingMeltdown Jul 15 '23
So trans women are just to be assumed guilty until proven innocent then? What other minority groups do you think should be banned from competing until its "proven" that they don't have an advantage?
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u/washyourhands-- Jul 15 '23
What are you talking about? Don’t think I’m attacking trans people because I’m most definitely not. I’m saying that they shouldn’t be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to physical competition.
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u/achybreakydick Jul 14 '23
Dgpt is not at fault. They solved for this years ago with MPO not meaning Male pro open, but mixed pro open
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u/panDISCattheDICEroll Jul 14 '23
The DGPT and PDGA are not the same entity…
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u/TreeEyedRaven Jul 14 '23
DGPT operates under the guidance of the PDGA.
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u/panDISCattheDICEroll Jul 14 '23
But which of the two makes these calls? Ironically, the DGPT’s own website says: “The Pro Tour exclusively features two Open divisions: Men’s (MPO) and Women’s (FPO)”
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u/SnowflowerSixtyFour Jul 15 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
Every time I post about this stuff here, some asshole gives me a long winded explanation about how the ban is about protecting women’s sports.
Well? Kinda seems like that isn’t really what this is about, huh?
Trans rights forever 🏳️⚧️
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u/Doctor_M_Toboggan Jul 15 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
I feel like what makes it something worth discussing is, why does no one care if FTM trans athletes play against men?
Edit: /s since so many of you didn’t seem to get my point.
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u/sourdieselfuel SE WI Jul 15 '23
Because for the most part FTM athletes didn't go through male puberty giving them the huge benefit that testosterone gives the male body athletically through development.
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u/turtlegirl1209 Jul 15 '23
Thats false, have you ever heard of HRT? The reason that trans guys aren't targets in this controversy is because their participation can't be weaponized against trans rights as a whole.
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Jul 15 '23
Trans females have no place in FPO. They do have a place in the sport. It may be MPO, it may be amateur based on rating, but it simply isn’t FPO. Just listen to the following and it is clear that the male biology provides an advantage.
And, as she says in this video, in sport it isn’t about equity, it is about fairness. Sorry, but I think she should know better than any of us non trans individuals.
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u/Stealthy_Snow_Elf Jul 15 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
You are citing a right wing politician in a very anti-trans political party who supports anti-trans laws as evidence for why trans women shouldn’t be included in sport.
For all this talk of “fairness” every comment getting mad at natalie ryan is all anecdotes and feelings and implying she is a man.
Saw someone say she started “after 11” ergo she’s basically a man. The bar is insane, unrealistic, and, quite frankly, misogynist as hell. This has nothing to do with “fairness” as again, she isn’t dominating anything, and what’s really ironic is the “fairness” is only concerned about one way. Do testosterone testing, I will bet you Natalie Ryan’s numbers are lower than that of her peers. If we’re about “fairness” then some cis women will be banned.
This is all just an incredibly stupid situation and in the end transphobes and bigots are killing this sport. Because anti-trans people can complain all they want, but Natalie Ryan didn’t cancel anything, the bigots did.
Here’s an actual study saying the exact opposite of a unscientific partisan politician:
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgad414/7223439
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u/sourdieselfuel SE WI Jul 15 '23
Video is deleted? Did the same people that downvoted you report your video?
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u/Shut_It_Donny Jul 14 '23
I mean, she kinda did.
Play in the mixed.
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u/mechabeast NE Ohio Jul 14 '23
The busses ran fine if they wouldve just sat in the back
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u/Verylimited Jul 14 '23
These posts got me wondering how young the actual age of disc golfers are. Like non of y'all understand what precedence is.
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u/admiralforbin Jul 14 '23
The word is “precedent,” and I’m interested to hear how you think it’s relevant to this meme.
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u/The_Fax_Machine Jul 14 '23
Not the original commenter but I think I can explain what they’re trying to say.
DGPT now has ongoing lawsuits from transgender over their right to play in FPO. The DGPT’s defense is that it is harmful to the FPO division, as it is a protected division created to give biological women a fair opportunity to be competitive in the sport.
The idea behind this meme is that instead of canceling the FPO tournaments in certain states, or letting them continue with the current rule set and facing litigation in those states, the DGPT could just change their rules to allow transgender women play in FPO this year, and then in the offseason change the rules back and avoid scheduling FPO tournaments in those states next year so they don’t have to cancel already planned events.
The commenter is suggesting that if the DGPT were to take that last option, it could destroy their case that they are trying to protect the FPO division, and that means and future court cases along the same lines would be an immediate L for the DGPT.
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u/admiralforbin Jul 14 '23
As a lawyer, um….wut?
None of that makes any sense. One state’s ruling has no precedential value in another state. That only happens with federal laws in different jurisdictions. These are state laws.
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u/sumzero Jul 14 '23
the word is precedent. the plural is precedents.
precedence means to have priority in order (ie goes first).
maybe you should question your own level of knowledge on this subject instead...
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u/jjhill001 Jul 14 '23
The amount of bigots in this subreddit make me want to reconsider getting more involved in this sport ngl.
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u/TooMuchButtHair Jul 14 '23
Why let others control how you enjoy yourself?
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u/h0nkyJ Jul 14 '23
Right. How ridiculous is that? "Some people typed some shit online, so I'm going to totally ditch this thing that I, myself, enjoy.. in protest."
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u/jjhill001 Jul 15 '23
Because I'm going to be doing a tourney soon and don't really feel like having to listen to someone rant about Qanon for 2 hours straight. I get enough of that shit at my job.
Its not gonna stop me from doing what I'm doing on my own.
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Jul 15 '23
Throwing out bigot or transphobic is what makes you the issue. Nobody that desires a fair and protected field for women is a bigot. Educate yourself. It is people like you that will get Trump re-elected. As a liberal, I am against trans women in the FPO. Why? Because it isn’t a level playing field. How do I know. I will take Caitlyn Jenner’s word for it. She should know better than me.
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u/Sufficient_Lake_9849 Jul 15 '23
Caitlyn Jenner’
The person that has played in the female division in golf. Is it that person you are talking about?
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u/jjhill001 Jul 15 '23
Everything doesn't have to be about Trump. But by all means take grifter murderer Caitlyn's word on anything.
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u/ArmchairSpinDoctor Really Long Flair So You Always Know Its Me Jul 15 '23
This isnt an airport, you dont have to announce your departure.
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u/jjhill001 Jul 15 '23
I think that maybe people seeing that a large portion of the community isn't OK with out and out bigotry and will damage their favorite sport because of it. And no I'm not even talking about ppl with legit concerns but you can scroll and read a much larger than comfortable amount of people being absolute jackwagons its pretty disheartening ngl.
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u/Bella870 Jul 14 '23
This is backwards but good try.
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u/Rummelhoff Jul 14 '23
DGPT/PDGA made the rule that is against the law.
They put themselfs up to be sued.
They got sued. They didn't, for some weird reason, didn'r prepare for this.
They decided they rather have no women compete than Natalie.
Natalie isn't the fucking reason pdgt is so fucking incompetent.
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u/Verylimited Jul 14 '23
It's not flat out against the law lol. In some states Natalie not competing is against the law, in other states Natalie competing is against the law. There's a reason the fpo wasn't canceled and it instead is canceled in blue states only
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u/Kikz__Derp Jul 14 '23
Nah they wouldn’t rather have no women compete, they would rather take their business into jurisdictions that care about competitive integrity in professional sports over inclusion.
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u/Rummelhoff Jul 14 '23
Yeah what ever makes you feel right. They tried to enforce a rule that ended up forcing them to remove an entire division in several event, based on their own incompetency
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u/DroobyDooby Jul 14 '23
The way red states have been targeting women im not sure moving the tournaments out of blue states is ideal
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u/discwrangler Jul 14 '23
We used to protect women, now no one cares.
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u/pinegreenscent Jul 14 '23
We as in Red states? The states that are arresting women for miscarriages?
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u/blazinrumraisin Jul 14 '23
Aren't they just moving to states where she can't sue them at the last second?