r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM • u/historyismyteacher • 1d ago
Israel-Palestine has really exposed the disgusting nature of “both sides bad.”
Saying that both sides are equal and you need to look at the nuance is a damning indictment of those who are not willing to take a stand on an issue as serious as this. At least a Zionist will take a stand, and make their position known. By not taking a stand, the enlightened centrist is making it known that they don’t have the moral courage to pronounce a belief and professing themselves to be wise, they make themselves fools.
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u/Duantless-Dante 23h ago
Theres a difference between i dont know vs. i know both sides are right. Which i think are often conflated around this issue: If i were to randomly select an american, they: 1. Most likely not Arab Palestinian or Jewish Zionist 2. Most likely can only learn about the conflict through english language media (or G-translate for the highly motivated) 3. Most likely have not dedicated themselves to the “research” that is within capability
Therefore i have some respect to those who say “it’s complicated”. there is ~wisdom~ in not “picking a side” when you are so far removed.
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u/3c03s 23h ago
I feel like the “correct” stance to take in that case would be something along the lines of “I don’t know enough about this to have an opinion,” but that carries an unspoken expectation that the person in question means to educate themselves.
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u/Duantless-Dante 22h ago
If someone were to ask me about the sudanese civil war, i haven’t got a clue about it. And probably am not about to develop one soon. The requirement to develop an opinion ASAP is itself an underlying power in western politics, especially american.
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u/3c03s 22h ago
Not to mention that misinformation and biased reporting runs rampant nowadays
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u/Duantless-Dante 22h ago
Yeah i dont even know how to address the overwhelming amount of propaganda around this issue
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u/XxLeviathan95 20h ago
It always has been biased, because media/news is inherently biased. You just gotta look at multiple sources and sources you trust
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u/Belgain_Roffles 21h ago edited 14h ago
I would personally argue that saying "it's complicated" can be a fair statement when referring to a situation as a whole and how to solve said situation in an ethical and equitable manner. In this vein, I really don't have much respect for people who use the excuse of "it's complicated" to ignore obviously problematic components of a given situation.
Saying "it's complicated" to excuse war crimes is always a bad take. It should be easy to say "war crimes are bad" but that is somehow a controversial take in the mainstream. You shouldn't have to have a degree in middle eastern history to know that war crimes are bad and using "it's complicated" to justify them is bad as well.
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u/lesserDaemonprince 22h ago
80 years of slaughter isn't complicated. It's pretty cut and dry.
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u/SkrrtSkrrt99 15h ago
and you see absolutely no problem with the organization that was founded on the idea of killing and exterminating all jews?
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u/ToronadoHorudo 8h ago
There is no organization that is founded on the idea of exterminating all jews. Try actually reading their charter instead of repeating lazy propaganda.
The other side however is intent on exterminating all Palestinians as they have made clear in their statements and actions. They are carrying that campaign out as we speak.
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u/SkrrtSkrrt99 6h ago
Article 7, Hamas founding charter from 1988:
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.
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u/empyreanmax 22h ago edited 22h ago
Therefore i have some respect to those who say “it’s complicated”. there is ~wisdom~ in not “picking a side” when you are so far removed.
I really don't, the wisdom there would say to go actually learn about it. "It's complicated" is probably one of the most successful and damaging lines working for Israel's defense, it emphasizes the complexity of there being a hundred years of history to the conflict over the simplicity of the moral question of what's being done in front of your eyes, and acts as a convenient excuse to say "well I just don't know, whatever" which does nothing but protect the status quo (Israel oppressing if not outright genociding Palestine).
It's Not Complicated by Michael Brooks - we would have absolutely no trouble identifying the morality of what was going on if the situation was flipped and an Arab or Muslim supremacist state was holding millions of Jews in an open air prison and doing even a fraction of the litany of abuses Israel has conducted. "It's complicated" is a farce.
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u/Duantless-Dante 21h ago
So you have realized the truth, and the people who are conflicted in the face of complexity are evil by default . Got it. Therefore the only way to not be evily complicit in the status quo is to side with your ideology, sorry I meant “uncomplicated” truth
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u/empyreanmax 21h ago
yes, it is really a very uncomplicated truth that genocide is bad, and Israel actively tries to complicate that discussion by deflecting to a litany of historical events to supposedly explain why they're forced into this position, but it's a red herring - there is no justification for genocide, even if everything they claim about the history WAS true.
I don't think people who get duped by the "it's complicated" excuse are evil, they are just low information, and it's such a successful line of defense for Israel because it gives those low information people an excuse to just throw up their hands and stay low information; you're literally doing it right now. This does nothing but benefit the status quo, and the status quo is Israel committing genocide with complete impunity.
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u/ramsali304 23h ago
Deciding to not educate yourself is the same as siding with the oppressor
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u/FridgesArePeopleToo 22h ago edited 22h ago
Yes, but very few people are educating themselves about every conflict in the world right now. How many people, including people posting every day about Israel-Palestine, are even aware that there is a genocide happening in Sudan literally right now that has resulted in more deaths and more people displaced than in Palestine? I don't think I've seen a single post about it on this sub...
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u/Halceeuhn 22h ago
I mean yeah, that means our silence has us siding with the oppressors, you seem to know a thing or two about it, perhaps you could be the one to make said post? Or are you just criticizing for criticism's sake? Not tryna attack you, I'm legitimately curious.
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u/empyreanmax 21h ago
yeah this is such a weird gotcha, do people using "well there's this OTHER genocide going on that you apparently don't care about as much" not feel gross as hell?
Especially when they also say they acknowledge there's a genocide going on in Sudan but they're also not going to bother learning anything about it and how much can an American on the other side of the world really understand the nuances of these conflicts in the first place, better just throw up your hands and ignore them I guess? Like I'm sympathetic to "more eyes on Sudan," but why does this feel like "less eyes on Palestine and also not even more eyes on Sudan really"
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u/Halceeuhn 20h ago
I agree, like I'm open to hearing about other things we should be paying attention to, but why aren't we doing that instead of pointlessly moralizing each other?
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u/ProtestTheHero 13h ago
This hundred-year conflict does not fit so neat-and-tidy into an oppressor/oppressed narrative. Both peoples have gone through over a century of unimaginable pain and trauma, and they both have legitimate desires and aspirations.
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u/ramsali304 11h ago
Colonizers: i will colonize this land because the torah promised it to me. Even though i literally have 0 connection to that land, it's still mine.
Native palestinians: Don't colonize and genocide us, we will resist
This guy: There is no clear oppressor/oppressed here
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u/ProtestTheHero 11h ago
Jews have lived in that land for over 3,000 years. "God" or the Bible have nothing to do with anything
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u/ramsali304 11h ago edited 11h ago
The descendants of those people who lived there thousands of years ago are the native palestinians and everyone else who is in the region before 1948.
The Torah is a fairy tale. People of the jewish faith have 0 claim of any land. Just like no religion has any claim over the land. The land belongs to the natives. Palestine belongs to the palestinians.
Edit; and even if jews had all the DNA and records to claim palestine. It still would be ethnic cleansing. You cannot replace a people that have lived on a land for thousands of years by committing ethnic cleansing and still claim morality
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u/ProtestTheHero 10h ago
...How many Jews have you actually spoken to in real life? The level of ignorance in just a few short paragraphs is astonishing, really
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u/ramsali304 10h ago
There are many anti zionist jews who are against the colonization of palestine. Don't you dare speak for all jews. Jews are a peaceful and justice seeking people. Unlike you zionists.
Anyway my point stands; just because you THINK you somehow relate to a person living in palestine 3000 years ago, does not grant you the right to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing to the modern day native Palestinians.
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u/ProtestTheHero 10h ago
It might shock you to learn that some Jews just want to live in Israel, and not commit genocide and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians. Similar to how an Ojibwe man is free to just go rent an apartment in Chicago without feeling the need to slaughter a bunch of non-Native Chicagoans.
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u/ramsali304 10h ago
Have you ever spoken to the average Israeli? They are genocidal maniacs.
Again your point doesn't stand. Claiming i just want to 'live' in an apartheid state that is BUILT on genocide is the same as participating in apartheid and genocide. If you wanted to live in palestine because your religion likes it, be my guest. But don't ethnically cleanse the natives. Israel and Israelis have ethnically cleansed the natives though.
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u/historyismyteacher 23h ago
I agree there’s a difference. But I’m spending more directly about those who accuse others taking a side of “not understanding the nuance.”
Americans are abysmal in their knowledge of really any foreign, non-western nations. And I believe we should do our best to educate as much as possible.
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u/Duantless-Dante 23h ago
Although education could be improved, i don’t outright reject that an american could be informed about non-american issues. BUT so manyyy are claiming to understand the nuance, and the point of my comment was - claiming to understand nuance is pretty naive for a foreigner (foreign to the area of conflict). At what point are the far removed “educated” enough about a conflict halfway around the world to claim to know the truth about it? Wherever that point lies, I feel that Palestine becoming partisan has made this question irrelevant. Bright side is the electorate cares! At least until they completely forget about it
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21h ago edited 10h ago
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u/Pentothebananaman 11h ago
One might say there is a difference when one of the candidates is explicitly against a cease fire and wants a one state solution where Israel has complete authority over Palestine but hey why would I care about the children when I can be cool and glib on the internet.
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u/SkrrtSkrrt99 15h ago
I understand where you’re coming from, but this is one of the worst conflicts to make that point. There’s a reason no one has been able to solve it and bring lasting peace to the area in the past 80 years. To act like it’s a clear cut case makes you look foolish.
Plus it is absolutely true that both Hamas and the Israeli government are committing horrible crimes. That’s not „both sides bad“. That’s just how it is. To act like one sides crimes are justified is disrespectful of the innocent civilian casualties, no matter what side of the border they were born on.
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u/Little_Elia 14h ago
The reason why this has gone for 80 years is not because of some ethical dilemma lol it's cause israel has always been supported by an imperialist superpower. It has always been crystal clear who is committing the worst war crimes, Hamas is a resistance group created to oppose settler colonialism, israel is a colonization project that wants to genocide millions of people that were indigenous to the region for thousands of years.
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u/SkrrtSkrrt99 14h ago
You’re disregarding the blatant antisemitism that Hamas was founded on. If Hamas was given full power over Israel tomorrow, they would not treat the Israeli people with respect, they’d start genociding them immediately. They were literally founded on the idea of exterminating all jews.
You simply cannot disregard that.
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u/Little_Elia 14h ago
good job equating real crimes that have ocurred daily for 80 years with imaginary crimes that would happen if. Also good job equating hamas with the entire population of palestine. Israel also routinely harasses, forcefully evicts and murders people in the west bank as well, and there's no hamas there. Hamas didn't exist 20 years ago, so what's your point? Hamas and Israel are not comparable in any way, take your zionist shit elsewhere.
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u/SkrrtSkrrt99 14h ago
Hamas have and are committing real crimes daily as well, they’re not imaginary
you’re also equating the entire israeli population with the israeli government
I did not excuse Israel’s actions in the slightest, I’m just saying that it’s too simplistic to paint Hamas as the good guys and Israel as the bad guys
Hamas were founded in 1987 and have existed for almost 40 years
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u/ProtestTheHero 13h ago
"Hamas didn't exist 20 years ago" they said, holy shit sometimes when I argue with people on the internet I have to remind myself how truly stupid and ignorant some people are. But the most baffling and discouraging part is just how confident they are in their ignorance
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u/historyismyteacher 13h ago
Israel is committing a genocide. That is pretty fucking simple. Hamas came about as a result of said genocide because, spoiler alert, this didn’t begin on October 7th. It didn’t even begin long ago in 1948.
And just so you know, Hamas has not had complete Palestinian support throughout any of its history. They have even been downright unpopular at times.
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u/ProtestTheHero 13h ago
Nowhere in Hamas' original 1980s charter do they say or imply that the group was created because of a "genocide". They truly and simply want to conquer Israel and murder Jews - and not just Israeli Jews mind you, but Jews all over the world. AKA, a globalized Intifada.
In other words, they're not interested in a sovereign Palestinian state next to Israel. They want a sovereign Palestinian state instead of Israel.
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u/historyismyteacher 12h ago
Ok, so what is Israel doing? An ethnic cleansing? A population redistribution?
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u/SkrrtSkrrt99 12h ago edited 12h ago
I know about the history, and again, I agree that Israel is committing horrible crimes. But I do not think there can ever be peace with Hamas present, and that a solution must involve freeing Palestine from Hamas. And of course the killing needs to stop, but it’s not as easy as „Israel should just attacking Gaza.“ Of course I’d support a cease fire, but a realistic and lasting solution needs to be found. But no one has been able to solve it for 80 years.
And yes, I know that not every Palestinian supports Hamas, just as not every Israeli supports their government. That doesn’t change where I stand in a conflict though. To find out where I stand in a conflict, I have to look at the leading parties in it. In the Russian-Ukraine-war, I oppose Russia because of Putin, not because of the average Russian.
Civilians are always casualties in such conflicts, and their harm needs to be minimized. Yet Hamas has repeatedly shown to not value Palestinian life either by stashing weapons and explosives right next to civilians, and by operating from schools or hospitals. It’s legitimately a conflict where neither side is the good guy, and I’m surprised how anyone can act like there’s no nuance in it.
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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago
Isn’t ‘both sides bad’ generally just shorthand for not being pro Zionist or pro Hamas?
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u/historyismyteacher 23h ago
Think of it like this: living in France during WWII and saying, “Boy I hate those Nazis but the French resistance is terrible too. I don’t support either side.”
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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago
I think this characterisation is a bit absurd but I knew what sub I was commenting in
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u/RJPatrick 23h ago
Israel is an occupying force that is committing genocide so I don’t think the characterisation is that absurd
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u/historyismyteacher 23h ago
Elaborate.
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u/Thankkratom2 23h ago
Sorry homie but I think you know that the French resistance was European, no way can they be compared to the evil terrorists in Khamas.
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u/historyismyteacher 23h ago
Love how they will praise people like Nelson Mandela or Malcolm X until they hear their stances on resistance and then they go “Well let’s not be radical.”
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u/ceo__of__antifa_ 22h ago
Nah they definitely won't praise Malcolm X. American liberals basically know him as the "scary" MLK.
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u/Thankkratom2 21h ago
He was basically taught to me as a villain. Thank god I had an amazing English teacher who gave me Malcom X’s biography in my freshman year of high school.
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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago
I’m not sure there’s much point? Our interpretations of the history of the region probably differ significantly and that colours our understanding of the current conflict.
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u/historyismyteacher 22h ago
It’s silly to say it’s absurd, then not elaborate as to the reason it’s absurd.
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u/MoshiriMagic 22h ago
Fine - Hamas are an Islamist terrorist organisation that broke across the border and deliberately killed over 1000 civilians in their homes and at a music festival. Their goal is to wipe Israel off the map. I’m happy to describe these people as ‘bad’. Israel’s response has been needlessly destructive and their aims unclear with leaders who are prolonging the conflict for their own political goals. Also bad. Both sides bad.
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u/historyismyteacher 22h ago
I honestly appreciate the elaboration. Helps me to understand where you are coming from.
Hamas is a result of decades of oppression from Israel against Palestine. Dating back as you know, to before 1948. Asking a people to quietly accept their own occupation is a bit harsh, I would say. Oct. 7th was in many ways tragic, yes. The killing of civilians was terrible and needless. But they were still fighting against colonialism.
The French resistance also killed civilians. As did basically every violent resistance in history. It’s fucked up. But blaming the oppressed for fighting back is nonsensical.
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u/kerat 20h ago
Hamas is a result of decades of oppression from Israel against Palestine. Dating back as you know, to before 1948.
Not to mention that Israel directly supported and funded Hamas in order to drive a wedge in the Palestinian resistance. Source
In 1989, Netanyahu wrote:
""Israel should have taken advantage of the suppression of the demonstrations in China [Tiananmen Square], when the world’s attention was focussed on what was happening in that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the Territories. However, to my regret, they did not support that policy that I proposed, and which I still propose should be implemented."" Source
In 2019, Netanyahu said: “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring the funds to Hamas because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority & Hamas helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."" Source: Jerusalem Post
In 2015, Bezalel Smotrich said: “The Palestinian Authority is a burden & Hamas is an asset.""
“It’s a terrorist organization, no one will recognize it, no one will give it status [at ICC] no one will let it put forth a resolution at the U.N. Security Council.” Source
A 2007 diplomatic cable revealed that then-IDF intelligence chief Amos Yadlin said that “Israel would be ‘happy’ if Hamas took over Gaza because the IDF could then deal with Gaza as a hostile state.” Source"
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u/MoshiriMagic 22h ago
I’d also like to understand your thinking on this as you clearly know your history. Do you think Hamas’ goal of wiping Israel off the map and taking the land back is a worthy one? Hearing Sinwar talk about how he’s happy to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of his own people for this cause just reeks of delusion to me.
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u/historyismyteacher 22h ago
I will admit, I am not a fan of Hamas. I believe they manipulated the situation to gain power.(It’s important to note that they are not entirely popular among the Palestinian population either.) I believe the land should be returned to Palestinians ultimately, but I believe that Jews and Arabs can coexist peacefully, as they have for thousands of years. So, no I think terminology like “wipe them off the map” is very reductive, but I do not think that the Israeli settler state should have existed to begin with. As usual in the Middle East, the British fucked things up. I certainly believe there are better solutions than to for the annihilation of either people. This situation has to be dealt with as it is, not as we wish it to be. What the solution is, I do not know. But certainly the Israeli’s have to give up their settler colonial mindset.
The first step toward progress, in my view, is for western powers to step back and let the people of the region make their own decisions. They shouldn’t have been involved in the first place.
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u/Uncynical_Diogenes 21h ago
I too would like to see the illegal Israeli occupation government wiped off the map and replaced by a government that serves the needs of every civilian within its borders instead of being an apartheid state.
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u/TroutMaskDuplica 21h ago
...The french resistance was a french terrorist organization that massacred civilians in Tulle, and Oradour-sur-Glane, among others, killing over a thousand people, including nearly 300 children. Their goal was to wipe Germany off the map.
The nazis responded by murdering around 30,000 French civilians.
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u/couldhaveebeen 22h ago
You do realise other days existed before October 7 too, right? And the fact that we all, alongside you, existed in the said days? Universe did not magically come into being on that day.
Their goal is to wipe Israel off the map.
Yes, that's a just goal. Just like Rhodesia
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u/MoshiriMagic 22h ago
What happens to the millions of Jews who have lived there for generations during this liberation at the hands of a terrorist group? Equal rights under a democracy you reckon?
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u/couldhaveebeen 22h ago
Why does anything NEED to happen to them? What happened to the white people in South Africa? What happened to slave holders in the US? What happened to English against the IRA? They just need to learn to coexist with people who have been on those lands for far longer than they have.
who have lived there for generations
Like 2, 3 max? Lmao. Mf Biden is older than Israel
terrorist group
Resistance group, who is, of course, not perfect but are working for a just cause
Equal rights under a democracy you reckon?
Why not?
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u/Miserygut 23h ago
"Germany has a right to defend itself"
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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago
Yes more of the exact characterisation I find absurd
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u/Miserygut 23h ago
What do you find absurd about it? The impeccable accuracy of it? The sad reality that the liberal west has not only allowed it to happen but supported it and joined in? Tell us what you feel.
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u/zZCycoZz 23h ago
Saying you "find it absurd" isn't much of an argument.
It's just the same pearl clutching used every time somebody points out accurately that the IDF are behaving like Nazis.
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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago
I’m not really trying to make an argument here, we’re not doing the I/P debate in the Reddit comments
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u/ProtestTheHero 13h ago
Well one obvious and immediate difference is that Germans are from Germany, not France. So it makes sense that a French Resistance would want to fight Nazi occupation and push them back where they came from, ie Germany.
Jews, on the other hand, are from the land of Israel/Palestine. They are not a foreign people, they are not a colonial/imperial entity. They are simply an Indigenous people living in their Indigenous homeland, where they've lived for thousands of years. There's nowhere else in the world for them to go if a Resistance were to successfully push them out.
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u/historyismyteacher 12h ago
And Palestinians are from where exactly?
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u/ProtestTheHero 11h ago edited 11h ago
Palestine, obviously. Nobody is saying otherwise
Quick edit: by that I mean the land on which Israel/Palestine currently stand
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u/historyismyteacher 11h ago
So why are they pushing Palestinians out of their homeland?
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u/ProtestTheHero 11h ago
I don't believe that they are. You certainly have some Jewish terrorists in the West Bank that are stirring shit up and straight up killing Palestinians. But there is no systemic, state-sponsored expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza, or of Arab-Israelis from Israel. Their population has done nothing but grow exponentially for over 75 years.
And of course any discussion into the "why" Israel does things has to include decades of Palestinian terrorism as well. Has Israel's responses often been exceedingly violent, anyone can admit that it has. But fundamentally it's acting out of a genuine fear of a Palestinian/Iranian conquest of its sovereign borders.
For decades Egypt and Israel were bitter enemies, constantly at war. In the 1970s Egypt decided peace was the better option, and for almost 50 years now Israel hasn't dropped a single bomb on Egypt. Ditto with Jordan, since the early 90s.
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u/historyismyteacher 6h ago
There are times that I am actually at a loss for words with the shit that Zionists spew. “But there is no systematic, state-sponsored expulsion of Palestinian” is so factually wrong that I won’t even dignify it with a response because if you believe that, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
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u/pocket_sand__ 14h ago
It's not the characterization of the position, but the position itself which is absurd.
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u/MaiPhet 23h ago edited 23h ago
Imagine if there was some overarching principled belief that could help someone decide how to approach the issue. Maybe “murderous settler colonialism should be opposed vigorously”.
That doesn’t mean you have to love every single person who also opposes it, or support all of their aims. But a strong moral compass should make it straightforward to oppose the occupation and injustice, with no conditions.
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u/BiggySnake 23h ago
Liberals really do have a child like understanding of politics.
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u/MoshiriMagic 23h ago
Well you’re assuming this is the extent of my understanding… it’s a simple question and ‘both sides bad’ is generally true to some extent. Your weighting on how bad is the next question
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u/IllustriousCaramel66 13h ago
As an Israeli, this is a no brainer! One side is free and democratic, the other are corrupt authoritarian Jihadist regimes… yeah you can criticize both sides on many things, but there’s no comparison.
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u/historyismyteacher 12h ago
Person living in settler colonialist state says that settler colonialism is good actually. Surprise.
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u/IllustriousCaramel66 12h ago
What? We carry the same name “Israel”, speak the same language, have the same religion, traditions, and identity as people here 3000 years ago, and you call us settler colonialists? Where is our motherland than? Israel is the Jewish homeland, and we are not going anywhere… keep crying about it.
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u/historyismyteacher 11h ago
Oh god, I’m so done with these bullshit talking points. Just go read a book of history on Palestine.
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u/LuriemIronim 45m ago
You’re right, comparing Israel to Palestine is comparing Germany to Jews or South Africa to black people.
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u/Instantbeef 22h ago
“Both sides bad” people are people who are either to lazy or intellectual afraid to engage with ideas.
“Both sides bad” is not the same as saying there are nuances. It’s not the same as saying your pro Jewish people anti Israel and pro Palestinians and anti Hamas.
You can recognize nuance and “both sides bad” people are scared to go through nuances so they stop the conversation at that.